PU Covering Second Play at 3rd (2-man)

[Richvee]

8 minutes ago, Kevin_K said:

...... more corpulent members of the umpiring brethren...... 

Nice.

[Cato the Younger]

6 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

That's been the mechanic in NJ for a few years. Sucks if you are U1 and have consecutive rotations where you need to cover HP on the backside of the play.

My understanding is that the change was made because of the more corpulent members of the umpiring brethren who cannot get to 3B when in A to cover a potential play on BR.  

I personally like this type of mechanic being optional and not being mandated. 

Let's say on Monday I'm working with a young up-and-coming 23 year old and he's working the plate and runs like a gazelle. That guy should probably be rotating up to third. Meanwhile if I'm working with a veteran on Tues. who is past the medicare qualified age that's nursing a bad knee it's probably better to leave him home. 

One you don't beat him up so much.

Two you have somebody in position for a potential play at the plate if something breaks down at third. 

I've seen situations where the plate umpire heads the third and anticipates that the base umpire will cover the plated home. Close play at the plate and two umpires are looking at one another until one decides to dial long distance and make the call. Almost as bad is when the old guy you made run down to third is beat and looking up the rear of a play at the plate and looks immobile when he actually was hustling down the third.

It's a lot to ask a 66-year-old veteran to beat a 17-year-old kid in a 90 foot race. Coaches and fans will do it. But why set the veteran up for failure when the base umpire can get a pretty good look from the sweet spot behind the mound.

[Welpe]

If somebody can't take a runner into third, what says they're going to be able to rotate to home and effectively cover a play at the plate? That's the part of this mechanic that has never made sense to me.

It would seem there's less distance to cover from second to third then there is from second to home. Assuming of course they are in a position to properly cover second in the first place.

[noumpere]

6 hours ago, Welpe said:

If somebody can't take a runner into third, what says they're going to be able to rotate to home and effectively cover a play at the plate? That's the part of this mechanic that has never made sense to me.

It would seem there's less distance to cover from second to third then there is from second to home. Assuming of course they are in a position to properly cover second in the first place.

You have almost twice as long to get to home, and less than twice as far to run.

 

Still doesn't mean I agree with the mechanic.

[DVA7130]

In general, if the ball doesn't leave the infield, then the only rotations we will do is for a rundown.

[RichMSN]

New HS rotation this year has PU covering 3rd with no one on or R3 only.

3-man

Why not? U1 comes down and covers the plate. We've been doing that for years.

The FED 2-man mechanics have been a mess for years. Having the PU cover third on a bases empty triple? GMAFB. The book goes in the trash as soon as I get it.

[Cav]

On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 11:20 AM, Cav said:

Our HS association preaches to strictly follow the NFHS UM, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health.  Actually participation varies.       

 

Having now completed our state meeting, I am pleasantly surprised to learn that we Ohioans have a new mechanics manual.  Biggest change in 2-man with bases empty will be the PU no longer picks up BR going into 3B.  Regrettably the OP is not addressed so I will default back to the NFHS manual which has the BU taking all calls on all bags.      

[Minnz]

On 2/5/2016 at 1:41 AM, Cato the Younger said:

Let's say on Monday I'm working with a young up-and-coming 23 year old and he's working the plate and runs like a gazelle. That guy should probably be rotating up to third. Meanwhile if I'm working with a veteran on Tues. who is past the medicare qualified age that's nursing a bad knee it's probably better to leave him home. 

If you aren't physically able to do the job as needed then you should retire and not be out there.  That is my take on the guy who can't get to 3B with R1 and secondary play or ball to outfield situation.

[Cato the Younger]

1 hour ago, Minnz said:

If you aren't physically able to do the job as needed then you should retire and not be out there.  That is my take on the guy who can't get to 3B with R1 and secondary play or ball to outfield situation.

In a different world, you may be right. 

But I deal with reality. Your post implies that you are young. The ruthless reality is in my area more and more umpires are reaching the Social Security line ( eligible to receive Social Security) I assign a lot of baseball and quite frankly if we were to "retire" umpires that lost a step or were injured we would not have enough to cover our games.  Not only varsity but sub-varsity as well. I suspect this is similar in other areas as well. 

Many times these guys are banged up with a bad knee etc. from working a lot of games, and they're actually going out and helping an assignor get his games covered and then there some idiot that's their partner that's demanding that they run down the third base because "philosophically" they think it's a better mechanic even though for that crew it's less than optimal because of the mobility of that crew.

 Many of these older guys are some of the most professional and reliable and handle situations way better the the less experieced "young buck". It's completely unnecessary beating them up making them run to third base when you've got a young umpire on the bases who could adequately cover the play.

[BCBrad]

As somebody who is on the plus side of 50, I work hard to make sure I can get to third. It is part of my professionalism and practice as an umpire. I go out the field by myself when no one is around and work on my positioning and mechanics. 

Yes, I huff and puff practicing those rotations, but I owe it to the people who expect me to do my best on the field. Yes, I feel more and more like I run like an out of control flamingo, but I still work to have good hustle on the field. I can follow a B/R around first and into second. Yes, I am finding twinges and tweaks in my knees, legs and back that I never had before, but I still try to get out a couple times a week during the off-season and go for 1-2 hour walk.

If you are over 50 and think that a beer, bag of chips and a big chair in front of a tv is the way to prepare for the season, you are not doing anyone a favour. You are definitely not doing your health a favour. I enjoy umpiring because it gets me out and active all year round, not just in the spring and summer. I hope I can stay active enough to do it into my 60s too. 

[ricka56]

21 hours ago, Cato the Younger said:

In a different world, you may be right. 

But I deal with reality. Your post implies that you are young. The ruthless reality is in my area more and more umpires are reaching the Social Security line ( eligible to receive Social Security) I assign a lot of baseball and quite frankly if we were to "retire" umpires that lost a step or were injured we would not have enough to cover our games.  Not only varsity but sub-varsity as well. I suspect this is similar in other areas as well. 

Many times these guys are banged up with a bad knee etc. from working a lot of games, and they're actually going out and helping an assignor get his games covered and then there some idiot that's their partner that's demanding that they run down the third base because "philosophically" they think it's a better mechanic even though for that crew it's less than optimal because of the mobility of that crew.

 Many of these older guys are some of the most professional and reliable and handle situations way better the the less experieced "young buck". It's completely unnecessary beating them up making them run to third base when you've got a young umpire on the bases who could adequately cover the play.

You can accommodate a less mobile partner, I do. Just pre-game what you are accommodating. But these games ought to be lower level contests. Higher level contests need higher level of mechanics which mean higher level of mobility. You can't get away with covering for the less-mobile umpire with highly skilled/mobile players. Sooner or later, those accommodations will bite you in the arse.    

[Minnz]

23 hours ago, Cato the Younger said:

In a different world, you may be right. 

But I deal with reality. Your post implies that you are young. The ruthless reality is in my area more and more umpires are reaching the Social Security line ( eligible to receive Social Security) I assign a lot of baseball and quite frankly if we were to "retire" umpires that lost a step or were injured we would not have enough to cover our games.  Not only varsity but sub-varsity as well. I suspect this is similar in other areas as well. 

Many times these guys are banged up with a bad knee etc. from working a lot of games, and they're actually going out and helping an assignor get his games covered and then there some idiot that's their partner that's demanding that they run down the third base because "philosophically" they think it's a better mechanic even though for that crew it's less than optimal because of the mobility of that crew.

 Many of these older guys are some of the most professional and reliable and handle situations way better the the less experieced "young buck". It's completely unnecessary beating them up making them run to third base when you've got a young umpire on the bases who could adequately cover the play.

I am mid 30s so not younger but not older I guess. I understand the need to place umpires due to numbers.  We have that same issue.

What that also means is we all need to do a better job in membership drives and getting younger and new umpires to come work for us. We also then have to mentor them and find out how to retain their services.

I often see in groups I have been in the older good old boys don't want the younger to take their place.  So many want the state tourney or high varsity assignments they refuse to truly mentor those. Hence the new crowd leaves after a year or two feeling left out. It is a double edged sword.

I personally feel if you can't fully do the job you don't deserve varsity games. It is not fair to the kids and we are there ultimately for the kids. It is our job to give them the best. 

We complain when a pitcher sucks and causes long games without hitting strike zone. They deserve the best we have to offer all the time and we need to make sure physically we have guys who can work those level of games.

[Welpe]

I agree that we should be working to recruit and bring in new blood but we're fighting against the reality that availability is tough at the high school level. I'm one of the youngest guys in my association and I'm approaching my mid-30s. I'm fortunate to have a career that gives me the flexibility to make games that start at 3:30; many younger guys are not that fortunate.

[Cato the Younger]

On February 11, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Brad Jones said:

As somebody who is on the plus side of 50, I work hard to make sure I can get to third. It is part of my professionalism and practice as an umpire. I go out the field by myself when no one is around and work on my positioning and mechanics. 

Yes, I huff and puff practicing those rotations, but I owe it to the people who expect me to do my best on the field. Yes, I feel more and more like I run like an out of control flamingo, but I still work to have good hustle on the field. I can follow a B/R around first and into second. Yes, I am finding twinges and tweaks in my knees, legs and back that I never had before, but I still try to get out a couple times a week during the off-season and go for 1-2 hour walk.

If you are over 50 and think that a beer, bag of chips and a big chair in front of a tv is the way to prepare for the season, you are not doing anyone a favour. You are definitely not doing your health a favour. I enjoy umpiring because it gets me out and active all year round, not just in the spring and summer. I hope I can stay active enough to do it into my 60s too. 

I have deep respect for your level of professionalism in your efforts to maintain a high level of fitness. But I think everyone needs to be careful with applying such high standards to one piece of a very large pie.

I will give you an example is an umpire that I work with the area that was a catcher for a very good Division I program in the late 1960s. For a guy that's in his late 60s, he still is in good shape and still has a nice solid arm which he likes to show off from time to time in firing the ball back to the pitcher.

 Personally, I like a little larger strike zone, but he's one of the most consistent umpires ball and strike guys I have ever worked with. He has incredible rapport and credibility with the coaches, is an excellent rules guy and handle situations extremely well. He's also retired, so he has a lot of availability and focuses a great deal of his time on umpiring.

There's one problem........ many years of catching and umpiring have taken a toll on his knees. 

All I'm indicating is I think it's a mistake to mandate a mechanic that's gonna require somebody like this to run down to third base all the time when it's unnecessary. He'll do it, but I see the toll that it takes on him. I think anybody who believes that this guy should not be working varsity baseball is an idiot.

 There may be some young umpires that are far more mobile than him but are drastically inferior in every other area of the game. It's 90° in the middle of the summer fourth or fifth day in a row of working in some young, "smart-ass mechanic connoisseur" makes the old guy run down the third base multiple times. I think this type of mechanic should be optional by the crew for what is going to work for the strengths and weaknesses of that crew. Standardizing mobility mechanics is a huge mistake.

I've worked a number of games with him, and they are some of the smoothest games that I ever have. I just tell him Mike stay home I'll take care of third-base even in first and third situations and everything runs smoothly.

[Cato the Younger]

23 hours ago, Welpe said:

I agree that we should be working to recruit and bring in new blood but we're fighting against the reality that availability is tough at the high school level. I'm one of the youngest guys in my association and I'm approaching my mid-30s. I'm fortunate to have a career that gives me the flexibility to make games that start at 3:30; many younger guys are not that fortunate.

You hit it right on the head. The trend is going in the opposite direction. I've been assigning umpires since the late 1980s, and the median age is going up not down. I think we can talk a lot about why that's happening. But the first thing for any assignor is to cover the game. Very difficult to go back to an athletic director and tell them well we have to move your game is nobody good enough is available.

 We need to focus on reality in many of these older nonmobile umpires are the most reliable and have a lot to offer to the game. If high schools were paying $450 for a baseball game or more like college basketball you would have all kinds of incredibly fit people lining up to umpire  but I am not holding my breath for anything like that to happen soon.

[udbrky]

On 1/31/2016 at 1:49 PM, Welpe said:

Does your association or group have the PU cover a second play in the infield at 3rd? My previous one did but my new group does not which was a change for me.

Also, out of curiosity, what is the 2-man CCA mechanic on this?

We covered it today in a clinic.

 

They said the "proper" mechanic was BU takes play at 1B with R2, PU comes to cover 3B and BU comes home for possible play.

 

But they said it's better to just take the play to 1B as BU, then pivot around and move in a couple steps for the play at 3B, and PU stays home for possible play at the plate/DBA.

 

Seems logical.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, udbrky said:

We covered it today in a clinic.

 

They said the "proper" mechanic was BU takes play at 1B with R2, PU comes to cover 3B and BU comes home for possible play.

 

But they said it's better to just take the play to 1B as BU, then pivot around and move in a couple steps for the play at 3B, and PU stays home for possible play at the plate/DBA.

 

Seems logical.

No mechanic, that I know of, has the PU take 3B with a ball hit to the infield and R2. That is an unreputable clinic. Or I am unreputable. Unless R2 was actially R1 at the beginning of the play.

[maven]

7 hours ago, udbrky said:

We covered it today in a clinic.

They said the "proper" mechanic was BU takes play at 1B with R2, PU comes to cover 3B and BU comes home for possible play.

But they said it's better to just take the play to 1B as BU, then pivot around and move in a couple steps for the play at 3B, and PU stays home for possible play at the plate/DBA.

Seems logical.

Seems just the reverse to me. Mechanics are proper or improper depending on whether they are better or worse.

Arbitrary conformity to something written in some book does not make a mechanic proper. I doubt the one labeled "proper" appears in a proper umpire manual.

[maineump]

CCA manual says BU is responsible for all 3 bases in the infield.

PU responsible for helping BU on swipe tag / pulled foot and any plays back at the plate.

2015 version page 91.

[Welpe]

4 hours ago, maineump said:

CCA manual says BU is responsible for all 3 bases in the infield.

PU responsible for helping BU on swipe tag / pulled foot and any plays back at the plate.

2015 version page 91.

That's not what was posted earlier.

After working several games under my current mechanics, it's hard to break the habit of covering third on a second play to the infield with an R1. I'll get there eventually.

[lawump]

I have seen a lot of talk about CCA Manual in this thread, but no cites to the 2016 manual.  (Maybe I just missed them.)

2016 manual, page 63 (Runner on First Base only): 

"Action on the field: Double-play ground ball to third base, with a throw to second base followed by a throw to first base.

Umpire responsibilities:

PU: Moves toward the third-base side of the pitcher’s mound to assist U1 on the slide at second base by R1. If R1 is out, PU stays with the slide to ensure the slide was legal then turns toward first base for secondary responsibility on a swipe tag and/or pulled foot at first base. If R1 is safe and attempts to advance to third, PU has responsibility for play at third if ball and runner come together. PU is responsible for all plays at home.

U1: Moves into the best position to rule on plays at first or second base, including a drift toward first on the attempted double play. U1 is responsible for the illegal slide until the he turns toward first base to rule on the play there."

2016 manual, page 64 (Runner on First Base only):

"Action on the field: Ground ball to third base with overthrow to first base; R1 advances to third base; BR advances to second base.

Umpire responsibilities:

PU: Moves toward the third-base side of the pitcher’s mound to assist U1 on the slide at second base if the defense attempts a play there. When no play is attempted there and R1 advances toward third, PU is responsible for any play at third base and home.

U1: Moves into the best position to rule on plays at first or second base, including a drift toward first if there is an attempted double play. U1 has all plays at first and second base and is responsible for taking BR into third. When PU must assume responsibility for R1 (when he is safe at second and advancing toward third), U1 becomes responsible for the overthrow and ball going out of play."

Per the 2016 manual, the plate umpire does NOT take any plays at third on a play where the ball stays in the infield with runners on first and third (page 85) or with an R2 only (page 91).

[noumpere]

It's been that way in the CCA manual for five or six years now (before that, U1 would have had third on pages 63 and 64 (or the equivalent)).

 

Many seem to choose to ignore the change.  I am torn between "doing what's printed" and "doing the mechanic most (here) think is better -- and I do, too"

[maven]

Looks like FED has it right: with R1 only, PU should "be ready to cover play at third base on R1 advancing when there is a clean hit to the outfield.... On an infield hit, [BU] has all calls in the infield." 2015-16 UM, p. 46.

[noumpere]

28 minutes ago, maven said:

Looks like FED has it right:

How DARE you post something is support of a FED difference.

 

It seems to be against the (unspoken) rules of the site. 

[maineump]

41 minutes ago, maven said:

Looks like FED has it right: with R1 only, PU should "be ready to cover play at third base on R1 advancing when there is a clean hit to the outfield.... On an infield hit, [BU] has all calls in the infield." 2015-16 UM, p. 46.

Exactly - BU needs to take the BR in case he goes to 2B on an outfield hit, and PU takes R1 into 3B.

Ball stays in the infield - BU has 'em all.