Ken Allan's been busy

[maven]

Situation: Bases loaded walk off walk. 2 outs bottom 7th. R2 does not touch 3rd; everyone else touches. What is the ruling?

Answer:

From Ken Allan (NFHS Rules Committee member) about this situation (bases loaded, 2 out game ending situation)

1.  Umpires should remain on the field until each runner fulfills his responsibility to advance.  "Declaring the game ended" is not some verbal command, or calling time.  By remaining on the field, the umpires have not "declared the game ended."

2.  When an umpire observes that at least one of the runners have not advanced as required by the rules, he should first see if the defense reacts to this.  If the defense initiates an appeal (either live ball, or by requesting time for a dead ball appeal), the appeal should be granted, and the out called and the run wiped off the board.  Even though the runner didn't pass the base without touching, it should still be treated like a missed base for the purposes of appeal.

3. In a situation where the ball is put into play (such as a clean base hit) and a runner fails to advance, if the defense throws to the base that the runner was forced to, then this is nothing more than a regular force out which wipes the run of the board.

4.  If the defense doesn't react to the runner not advancing, then the umpire should call the runner out for abandonment, and also wipe the run off the board (because a runner who abandons a base he was forced to advance to is a force out). This will be a wildly unpopular call, but we are there to make tough calls and properly enforce the rules.

5.  Even if coaches and bench players enter live ball territory, the umpire should not call time.  However, their presence on the field could make them liable for interference if they hinder the defense in their effort to throw to the base for the putout or the appeal.

[UMP45]

Situation: Bases loaded walk off walk. 2 outs bottom 7th. R2 does not touch 3rd; everyone else touches. What is the ruling?

Answer:

From Ken Allan (NFHS Rules Committee member) about this situation (bases loaded, 2 out game ending situation)

1.  Umpires should remain on the field until each runner fulfills his responsibility to advance.  "Declaring the game ended" is not some verbal command, or calling time.  By remaining on the field, the umpires have not "declared the game ended."

2.  When an umpire observes that at least one of the runners have not advanced as required by the rules, he should first see if the defense reacts to this.  If the defense initiates an appeal (either live ball, or by requesting time for a dead ball appeal), the appeal should be granted, and the out called and the run wiped off the board.  Even though the runner didn't pass the base without touching, it should still be treated like a missed base for the purposes of appeal.

3. In a situation where the ball is put into play (such as a clean base hit) and a runner fails to advance, if the defense throws to the base that the runner was forced to, then this is nothing more than a regular force out which wipes the run of the board.

4.  If the defense doesn't react to the runner not advancing, then the umpire should call the runner out for abandonment, and also wipe the run off the board (because a runner who abandons a base he was forced to advance to is a force out). This will be a wildly unpopular call, but we are there to make tough calls and properly enforce the rules.

5.  Even if coaches and bench players enter live ball territory, the umpire should not call time.  However, their presence on the field could make them liable for interference if they hinder the defense in their effort to throw to the base for the putout or the appeal.

Good luck with number 4. Let's see how many  post game ejections you have. And how many LEO's have to escort you to your car!

 

[Jimurray]

Situation: Bases loaded walk off walk. 2 outs bottom 7th. R2 does not touch 3rd; everyone else touches. What is the ruling?

Answer:

From Ken Allan (NFHS Rules Committee member) about this situation (bases loaded, 2 out game ending situation)

1.  Umpires should remain on the field until each runner fulfills his responsibility to advance.  "Declaring the game ended" is not some verbal command, or calling time.  By remaining on the field, the umpires have not "declared the game ended."

2.  When an umpire observes that at least one of the runners have not advanced as required by the rules, he should first see if the defense reacts to this.  If the defense initiates an appeal (either live ball, or by requesting time for a dead ball appeal), the appeal should be granted, and the out called and the run wiped off the board.  Even though the runner didn't pass the base without touching, it should still be treated like a missed base for the purposes of appeal.

3. In a situation where the ball is put into play (such as a clean base hit) and a runner fails to advance, if the defense throws to the base that the runner was forced to, then this is nothing more than a regular force out which wipes the run of the board.

4.  If the defense doesn't react to the runner not advancing, then the umpire should call the runner out for abandonment, and also wipe the run off the board (because a runner who abandons a base he was forced to advance to is a force out). This will be a wildly unpopular call, but we are there to make tough calls and properly enforce the rules.

5.  Even if coaches and bench players enter live ball territory, the umpire should not call time.  However, their presence on the field could make them liable for interference if they hinder the defense in their effort to throw to the base for the putout or the appeal.

Did he consult with MLB on this?

[jjb]

"Wildly Unpopular Call?" YGBSM! Talk about OOO! The only way I'm making this call is by email....

[Richvee]

Bases loaded, walk off walk, R2 runs right into the celebration, never goes to 3rd....Why would we wait to see if the defense appeals if they want us to call him out  for abandonment anyway? UGH...what a $hi*storm.

[noumpere]

Bases loaded, walk off walk, R2 runs right into the celebration, never goes to 3rd....Why would we wait to see if the defense appeals if they want us to call him out  for abandonment anyway? UGH...what a $hi*storm.

Because making the appeal out call is easier than making the abandonment out call.

[maven]

Because making the appeal out call is easier than making the abandonment out call.

I think you're right about Ken Allan's "thinking" here, treating this as both a possible missed base and as abandonment. Make it as easy as possible for the umpires to escape with their lives.

But that's a BS ruling: it can't possibly be both. If R2 runs close enough to 3B to have missed it, then he hasn't abandoned. If he has abandoned, then he's not close enough to 3B to have missed it.

Here's another problem: there seems to be no basis in FED rules to treat abandonment as a force out. I have no problem with that in principle (R2 is forced to advance), but it's not in the — fairly explicit — rules defining force outs (2-17 and 9-1-1). Those rules require a tag of base or runner, or calling the runner out for a missed base appeal at a base to which he was forced.

[grayhawk]

I was the one that contacted Ken and made the original post on Facebook that Maven posted above.  I asked Ken several questions and then wrote the post based on his answers, so phrases like "wildly unpopular call" were mine and not Ken's.  His point was that we have to be willing to make the tough call, whether it's a scrimmage, regular season game, playoffs or finals.  I gave him my thoughts that to make a call like this, an umpire needs to be sure that his association and state have his back and he assured me that the state (CA) would back any umpire that makes this call.

The progression of how he would call this is, I believe, in line with what was posted above in that waiting for the defense to appeal first makes this a slightly easier pill to swallow for the offense because it isn't the umpires inserting themselves into the game.  However, if the defense doesn't take action, the offense has still not fulfilled their responsibilities and the umpire should then make the abandonment call.  For clarity, the scenario I sent to Ken involved R2 making no effort to advance to third base.  He simply headed straight towards first where his teammates had surrounded the BR for his walk off walk.  So to me, abandonment is the most appropriate call here, but if the defense notices that R2 "missed" third base by 90 feet, the go ahead and call the out on appeal.

With respect to abandonment being a force out, I was not sure if that was the case (given what Maven wrote above - I had the same interpretation) so I asked Ken directly and he indicated that abandoning a base that a runner is forced to, would be a force out.  Unless a higher authority contradicts Ken on this point, I think we should go with it.

Just wanted to fill in some of the blanks here.  Let me know if you have any questions.

[basejester]

I see this response.  And I also see people write, "Don't pick up the dirty end of the stick." and "Umpire with the book, not by the book."  I can't think of an example that those phrases apply to less than unnoticed abandonment on a walk-off.

 

Edited November 8, 2015 by basejester

[Tksjewelry]

Who is Ken Allan? Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[grayhawk]

Who is Ken Allan? Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

He's been on the NFHS rules committee for years. I think he retired from it last year.

[Tksjewelry]

He's been on the

NFHS

rules committee for years. I think he retired from it last year.

Thank you! Now I understand the context. Can someone post a link to this Facebook group everyone keeps mentioning please? I don't post to FB but it would be interesting to read. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[ricka56]

No mention of the tackling R2, picking him up, and dropping him on 3B option ? ... ugh 

[dookiexman]

Are answer 2 and answer 4 addressing the same situation?

I read answer 2 as R2 not touching 3B and thus waiting for an appeal on a missed base. Conversely, I read answer 4 as R2 not advancing on the clean hit mentioned in answer 3. 

With a walk off walk, the ball is still live and if R3 touches home and there is no defensive appeal to R2 "missing" 3B, at what point do we as umpires let the play stand as an non-appealed missed base and end the game? Or should we make the abandonment call once it is obvious the defense is not appealing and the runner is some arbitrary distance (30,' 60', 90', dugout, etc.) from the missed/abandoned base? Thus starting a new inning (probably with fewer coaches for the home team). 

Bases loaded, 2 outs, bottom 7, HT down by one. Clean hit that scores R3 and R2 (with R2 missing 3B). Do we wait for a defensive appeal on the missed base? Or once the defense has left the field, we walk to our vehicles and discuss it as a missed opportunity for the VT to go another inning.

[JonnyCat]

Just for clarification. If I'm to understand the question of a bases loaded walk off walk in the OP, apparently in that situation, we are supposed to get the out no matter what? Either on appeal or abondonment? Either way, we are getting the out?

Out on appeal, I understand, and would make that call. Out on abandonment, not so much.

[grayhawk]

Are answer 2 and answer 4 addressing the same situation?

I read answer 2 as R2 not touching 3B and thus waiting for an appeal on a missed base. Conversely, I read answer 4 as R2 not advancing on the clean hit mentioned in answer 3. 

With a walk off walk, the ball is still live and if R3 touches home and there is no defensive appeal to R2 "missing" 3B, at what point do we as umpires let the play stand as an non-appealed missed base and end the game? Or should we make the abandonment call once it is obvious the defense is not appealing and the runner is some arbitrary distance (30,' 60', 90', dugout, etc.) from the missed/abandoned base? Thus starting a new inning (probably with fewer coaches for the home team). 

Bases loaded, 2 outs, bottom 7, HT down by one. Clean hit that scores R3 and R2 (with R2 missing 3B). Do we wait for a defensive appeal on the missed base? Or once the defense has left the field, we walk to our vehicles and discuss it as a missed opportunity for the VT to go another inning.

If a runner advances to a base and misses it, then that is clearly a case of a missed base and umpires should wait for an appeal.  Abandonment is not appropriate because the runner did advance.  If there is no appeal, then walk off the field.  My email to Ken was specifically for when one of the runners never makes any attempt to advance, and simply joins the celebration near first base (where the BR is because he just walked).

To answer your question about the walk off walk, Ken's direction was to first see if the defense appeals the "missed" base.  If they don't appeal, then we are to make the out call for abandonment (which, to me, is the most "correct" call according to the rules).  The runner clearly "left the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base."  Is this OOO?  Not according to Ken.  Again, you better be damn sure that your association and the state will have your back on this call because this is one that will almost certainly get your name in the paper (which no umpire wants) and could cost you assignments in the future if they won't support the umpire that makes this call.

[Tksjewelry]

I can already see that this scenario is going to take up a bit of association meeting time come January. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[grayhawk]

I can already see that this scenario is going to take up a bit of association meeting time come January. Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

It's worth discussing.  It's not a third world play - there have been numerous times that it's happened, and it seems most likely to happen in a big game where the players are excited about winning.  However your association decides to handle it, at least everyone will be in alignment.

[Tksjewelry]

It's worth discussing.  It's not a third world play - there have been numerous times that it's happened, and it seems most likely to happen in a big game where the players are excited about winning.  However your association decides to handle it, at least everyone will be in alignment.

Our busiest time of the year is played under fed, with that many high stakes games, yup, we want to be on the same page. I'll also want to know how this would be handled under obr, which is half my games. (this is a hint to our meetings trainer who often reads this site but doesn't comment, I know you're there, we need both interps please). Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[grayhawk]

Our busiest time of the year is played under

fed

, with that many high stakes games, yup, we want to be on the same page. I'll also want to know how this would be handled under

obr

, which is half my games. (this is a hint to our meetings trainer who often reads this site but doesn't comment, I know you're there, we need both interps please). Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

In OBR, it's a little easier because only R3 and the BR need to advance, not R1 or R2.  I say easier because we know that a run can't score if the runner doesn't touch or pass the plate, and we also know that anytime the BR makes the third out before touching first that no run can score.  OBR at least gives some additional direction by issuing a penalty:

PENALTY: If the runner on third refuses to advance to and touch home base in a reasonable time, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player and order the game resumed. If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. If, before two are out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the run shall count, but the offending player shall be called out.

While it doesn't say the out is for abandonment, it certainly appears to be the reason based on the above.

[ricka56]

It's worth discussing.  It's not a third world play - there have been numerous times that it's happened, and it seems most likely to happen in a big game where the players are excited about winning.  However your association decides to handle it, at least everyone will be in alignment.

Though it is not a TWP, i believe the person who brings it up in an Asso. meeting is going to be seen as "that guy"... the one that thinks up TWPs. And what are the possible outcomes of this discussion? Could the Asso. decide that they don't want umpires sticking around to pick up the dirty stick and risk a possible rule mis-application protest? Our state doesn't allow protests, but the state does punish umpires that misapply rules. Would a Asso. really decide to put their members at risk like that ?

I'm not bringing it up for Asso. discussion. If the baseball gods lay this one on me (maybe I deserve it), then I'm watching the VT to see if they are appealing the missed base (by throwing to the base or by dead ball) or conceding the game (lining up for hand shakes). If the former, I'd rule on the appeal. If the latter, I'm gone.  

[Jimurray]

Just to be clear? Is anyone advocating that at the end of a play, inning, game ending or otherwise. that one umpire of a crew, seeing a missed or abandoned base should remain in his position on the field awaiting an appeal while the rest of his crew are leaving or repositioning?

Edited November 10, 2015 by Jimurray

[grayhawk]

Just to be clear? Is anyone advocating that at the end of a play, inning, game ending or otherwise. that one umpire of a crew, seeing a missed or abandoned base should remain in his position on the field awaiting an appeal while the rest of his crew are leaving or repositioning?

According to Ken, "declaring the game ended" means walking off the field.  He is saying that in a specific game ending scenario (not end of a play or inning), the umpires shouldn't exit the field if the runners have not advanced as is required by the rules.  Instead, the umpires should watch for the defense to react and then call the out for abandonment if they don't.  I am imagining that this takes a few seconds, so it's not like one guy is standing there for a minute while his partners are waiting at the gate.

[JonnyCat]

According to Ken, "declaring the game ended" means walking off the field.  He is saying that in a specific game ending scenario (not end of a play or inning), the umpires shouldn't exit the field if the runners have not advanced as is required by the rules.  Instead, the umpires should watch for the defense to react and then call the out for abandonment if they don't.  I am imagining that this takes a few seconds, so it's not like one guy is standing there for a minute while his partners are waiting at the gate.

So why the difference between the end of a play, as Jimurray suggested, and the end of a game? At the end of a play, we wait for an appeal, and if none then we just keep our mouths shut? But at the end of the game, we're supposed to get the out no matter what and cause a $hitstorm of epic proportions?

Seems a little contrary to me. Why only call the out on appeal in one scenario and not the other?

 

[Richvee]

So why the difference between the end of a play, as Jimurray suggested, and the end of a game? At the end of a play, we wait for an appeal, and if none then we just keep our mouths shut? But at the end of the game, we're supposed to get the out no matter what and cause a $hitstorm of epic proportions?

Seems a little contrary to me. Why only call the out on appeal in one scenario and not the other?

 

Bases loaded, 2 outs, top of the 3rd. Batter walks....Why would the runners not move up a base? And if for some unknown reason R2 did run right into the dugout after a 2 out bases loaded walk, that would be abandonment.