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Line Drive hitting a runner on base


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USSSA sanctioned game - A line drive hits the runner standing on 2B.  The ball ricochets to the 2B (fielder) who catches it in the air.  Runner ruled safe as stayed in contact with the base.  Hitter was ruled out as umpires considered the ball as never touching the ground and ball was still an line drive.  Is this the right call?

Please respond with a cc: to: rokavon@q.com.

 

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USSSA sanctioned game - A line drive hits the runner standing on 2B.  The ball ricochets to the 2B (fielder) who catches it in the air.  Runner ruled safe as stayed in contact with the base.  Hitter was ruled out as umpires considered the ball as never touching the ground and ball was still an line drive.  Is this the right call?

Please respond with a cc: to: rokavon@q.com.

 

Both calls were incorrect.  The runner is out, the ball is dead, and the batter is awarded first base.

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Why is the runner out?  He was on the base when he got hit by the ball hit him and the USSSA rule book says in this instance he is safe.  Is the ball live when it hits him on base or dead as soon as it hits him?  The contentious portion was the hitter.  Everyone (both umpires and both coaches) agreed the runner was safe per the rule book.  The discrepancy was is the ricochet and catch an out on the hitter, or does the 2B still need to make a play to 1B?

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Why is the runner out?  He was on the base when he got hit by the ball hit him and the USSSA rule book says in this instance he is safe.  Is the ball live when it hits him on base or dead as soon as it hits him?  The contentious portion was the hitter.  Everyone (both umpires and both coaches) agreed the runner was safe per the rule book.  The discrepancy was is the ricochet and catch an out on the hitter, or does the 2B still need to make a play to 1B?

I believe I forgot to mention, this was a men's Class E slow pitch softball league game.

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Guest,

Most of us here are Baseball umpires, and the answers given are correct for Baseball.

After looking up some softball rules looks like the calls in your OP are correct...for softball.....

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Looking at the USSSA rulebook, I think that this is a case where they (USSSA slow pitch) mucked up the rule by adding allowing a runner to be protected while on base.  

You have to combine 3 rules to dissect this play (bold and underline mine):  

- Rule 8.5.C has the runner protected while he's on the base.  

Base runner is out:

C. When a base runner is struck by a fair batted ball on fair ground while off his base and before it touches a fielder or passes a fielder.

- Batter Runner Is Out 8.4.C

C. When a fly ball is legally caught, with the fielder’s feet within the established boundaries of the field.

Rule 3 (Definition of fly ball)

FLY BALL refers to any ball batted into the air and before it strikes some object other than a fielder.

Given all of that, I would actually have to say that by the book the ball is live (because we aren't told it's dead) and not an out (because it struck an object other than a fielder), so a putout at first would be required to get the out.  

That said, I'm fairly certain that this is not the "intention of the rule" and a case of USSSA pulling over baseball rules for most of their rules, and then changing the "protected while on base rule" without updating the coordinating definitions.  If I was umpiring this game (without having done this research) I would absolutely assume that it's an out.  It just doesn't make sense to call it the other way as you are actually giving incentive for a baserunner to get hit by the ball.  That said, I think that the correct ruling (by the book) is no out as stated. 

Edited by MPLSMatt
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Not really convoluted...if you look at the right rule in the rule book it's pretty simple.

The rules posted above touch on the right ruling, but another rule gets right to the point. Refer to 8-12-L, in the section that tells us some scenarios when the runner is NOT out.

In USSSA slow pitch, when a runner is hit with a batted ball while OFF a base, the rules are exactly the same as what we're familiar with in baseball. When a runner is hit while ON a base, now we have a rule difference. Being on the base offers no protection in baseball (other than if an infield fly has been hit). But it does in most forms of softball.

The reasoning is actually the same as it is with the infield fly exception in baseball. Since leadoffs aren't allowed in softball, the runners have much less of an option on where to position themselves. They're pretty much restricted to being on the base- same as a tagging runner in baseball would be when an infield fly is hit. So the rules provide an exception, taking into account that a runner on a base is standing precisely where the rules require him to be. Here is the rule:

 8-12-L: Baserunners are NOT out...When, while in contact with the base, the base runner is hit with a fair batted ball unless the umpire rules that the ball was intentionally interfered with, or a fielder interfered with, while attempting to field a batted ball. 

The note at the end of that section tells us that in this case the ball remains live.

As for the subsequent "catch/no catch", again the rule here is the same as baseball. Once the ball touches an offensive player it is no longer "in-flight" and can't be caught for an out. Refer to Rule 3 definition of "catch" in teh USSSA rule book.

Edited by BretMan
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Not really convoluted...if you look at the right rule in the rule book it's pretty simple.

The rules posted above touch on the right ruling, but another rule gets right to the point. Refer to 8-12-L, in the section that tells us some scenarios when the runner is NOT out.

In USSSA slow pitch, when a runner is hit with a batted ball while OFF a base, the rules are exactly the same as what we're familiar with in baseball. When a runner is hit while ON a base, now we have a rule difference. Being on the base offers no protection in baseball (other than if an infield fly has been hit). But it does in most forms of softball.

The reasoning is actually the same as it is with the infield fly exception in baseball. Since leadoffs aren't allowed in softball, the runners have much less of an option on where to position themselves. They're pretty much restricted to being on the base- same as a tagging runner in baseball would be when an infield fly is hit. So the rules provide an exception, taking into account that a runner on a base is standing precisely where the rules require him to be. Here is the rule:

 8-12-L: Baserunners are NOT out...When, while in contact with the base, the base runner is hit with a fair batted ball unless the umpire rules that the ball was intentionally interfered with, or a fielder interfered with, while attempting to field a batted ball. 

The note at the end of that section tells us that in this case the ball remains live.

Good catch on 8-12-L - but do you agree with my logic that a catch off of a ricochet off of a runner would be live but not an out? 

 

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If no other infielder had a play behind the runner at second?

The only way I could see a runner standing on second base NOT being out when struck by a batted ball would be in Fed with the infield playing in.

It's possible in OBR if the infield was playing in and the ball went through or by either F6 or F4 right in front of the base.

Of course, I can't imagine R2 standing on second in any baseball game, unless it was closed bases and a VERY clueless runner.  Even in closed bases, runners can leave the base after the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, or once it reaches the batter (depending on rule set).

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The only way I could see a runner standing on second base NOT being out when struck by a batted ball would be in Fed with the infield playing in.

It's possible in OBR if the infield was playing in and the ball went through or by either F6 or F4 right in front of the base.

Of course, I can't imagine R2 standing on second in any baseball game, unless it was closed bases and a VERY clueless runner.  Even in closed bases, runners can leave the base after the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, or once it reaches the batter (depending on rule set).

If it's a line drive up the middle it's doubtful to me any infielder would have a chance to get it.  And you're right, why the runner would still be on second is beyond me.  Then again I had a batter hit a ball backwards last night and strike me square on the mask.  Some called it a foul ball, I just told the batter to hit it the other way.  Hadn't been on a field in almost two months and get clocked the first inning.

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If it's a line drive up the middle it's doubtful to me any infielder would have a chance to get it.  And you're right, why the runner would still be on second is beyond me.  Then again I had a batter hit a ball backwards last night and strike me square on the mask.  Some called it a foul ball, I just told the batter to hit it the other way.  Hadn't been on a field in almost two months and get clocked the first inning.

Welcome back. Whack!
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Thank you to all of you.  This clears up the muck significantly.  

If protested, the protest would have come from the offensive team as the umpire ruled the batter out on the line drive ricochet catch. 

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HELP. I am trying to take the ump test and this is a sample question , and after all the discussion above i am still confused . THe PIAA RULE BOOK is total CRAP and you need to be a lawyer to figure out what th ebook DOES NOT SAY in most cases .    If the runner is struck while he is on a base , i beleive we all think that he should be SAFE as the base should protect him.  Now rule 5-1 #13 states thart the hit runner is out ( But it doent specify if he is standing on a base ??) . It also states that the batter gets 1st base so the ball cant be live and no other action can be made on the play.   The PIAA says to look at rule 8-4-2K , which only confuses the issue further as this instance is not a line drive , but rather an infield Fly , then regardless of where men are on base or the number of outs this rule says the batter is out by the INFIELD Fly rule.  TO me this rule has NOTHING to do with this instance ( WHich by the way is how MOST Of the sample questions that the PIAA gives us to study seem to waste our time confusing the issues .   If there are any PIAA Umps that can advise on this item please provide the correct ruleing .

thanks

 

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2 hours ago, Guest Ray said:

HELP. I am trying to take the ump test and this is a sample question , and after all the discussion above i am still confused . THe PIAA RULE BOOK is total CRAP and you need to be a lawyer to figure out what th ebook DOES NOT SAY in most cases .    If the runner is struck while he is on a base , i beleive we all think that he should be SAFE as the base should protect him.  Now rule 5-1 #13 states thart the hit runner is out ( But it doent specify if he is standing on a base ??) . It also states that the batter gets 1st base so the ball cant be live and no other action can be made on the play.   The PIAA says to look at rule 8-4-2K , which only confuses the issue further as this instance is not a line drive , but rather an infield Fly , then regardless of where men are on base or the number of outs this rule says the batter is out by the INFIELD Fly rule.  TO me this rule has NOTHING to do with this instance ( WHich by the way is how MOST Of the sample questions that the PIAA gives us to study seem to waste our time confusing the issues .   If there are any PIAA Umps that can advise on this item please provide the correct ruleing .

thanks

 

Can you be more specific with your question 

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Assuming PIAA uses NFHS rules ...

I'm going to add some colorful notations to illustrate the application of 8-4-2k.

The runner is OUT when he:

k. (1)is contacted by a fair batted ball (2) before it touches an infielder, or (3) after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and (4) the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play (5-1-1f, 6-1-5).

1. If a runner is touching his base when he is hit by an infield fly, he is not out, but the batter is out by the infield fly rule. The ball is dead, even in the exception.

2. If a runner is hit by an infield fly when he is not touching his base, both he and the batter are out.

For the runner to be out, we have several requirements that must be met.  So ask yourself:

(1) Was the runner contacted by a fair batted ball?  YES (we may have an out) -- NO (then why are we talking about this?)

(2) Had the ball touched an infielder? NO (we may have an out) -- YES (we do not have an out)

(3) Had the ball passed any infielder (other than the pitcher)?  If NO, we have an out.  If YES, continue below ...

(4) Did another infielder have a play? If YES, we have an out.  If NO, we have no out.

 

The base is NOT a safe haven for a runner against a batted ball (fly, line drive, or ground ball).  The reason 5-1#13 (using your citation, I'm not sure if you are referring to) does not say anything about being on the base is because it doesn't matter.  If it did matter, the rule would say that.

The infield fly exception is the unusual circumstance where the infield fly takes precedence and the runner is not penalized.  Why?  The batter is already out, so the fielder does not need the "right of way" to make the play.  I'm not sure I like that since the fielder could make the catch and double-up a runner who did not tag up, but, what can you do?

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On 1/9/2023 at 5:52 PM, noumpere said:

This thread is 7+ years old, but I believe (almost) no experienced umpire thinks "he should be safe as the base protects him."

No BASEBALL umpire.

I can see umps who go back and forth from baseball to softball getting mixed up.  Many softball rule sets (like in the OP) protect the runner here, because of the short bases, and the runner can't leave until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand, or, in some cases, reaches the plate.

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