Force play at the plate - LL Regional MN vs SD

[johnnyg08]

What can we learn from this play?  Let's keep the comments constructive. 

[stkjock]

ruled it hit the knob and it was in play - the crux of my question is why was R3 called safe?  Ball clearly beats R3 by 8-10' and catcher clearly on the plate with his foot.

 

HU does say something to the catcher when questioned, but never indicates it was OBS, I just do not get this call.

[Thunderheads]

???????????????????

[basejester]

A guy could defend obstruction in Little League for this play, but in that case he should sell it emphatically.  There's no reason the catcher should set up on this play like he did, causing the runner to slide, any more than a first baseman should on a play at first.  I'm not sure that's what he called (and I wouldn't have, because the runner is already out at the time he makes his slide).  Is it possible that he just forgot it was a force and then stuck with it?  Sure.

2.0 OBSTRUCTION

. . .

Note:  Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line, or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball.

OBR's "in the act of fielding the ball" is omitted.

 

[ElkOil]

Taken at face value (and that's I can do from my armchair perspective), it was a blown call.  So what can we learn?  Emphasizing the basics in angle, distance and removing your mask are good elements at play in this one.  I thought PU probably got a decent angle, but maybe his vision was obscured by his mask and perhaps he was too close to get a good view of the plate.  I also think he should have sold his call better if he saw something that convinced him the runner was safe.  In light of all that, I think the commentators, the players and the coach all handled it very well.  I liked the conversation the followed and what little analysis there was.

[DVA7130]

I just love the coaches are forced to act professional and respectful because they are on TV

[Jimurray]

For learning purpose, anybody got an IP at the end except that the PU didn't put the ball in play until after the pitcher started his motion.

Who's using patches these days?

[grayhawk]

This play was just too big for him.  Bases loaded and the pitch comes in on the hands.  He's not sure if it hits the knob or the hands, and you can see him looking at the BR to get an indication on way or the other.  He does the right thing by reading the BR's reaction, but he's still processing that (mask still on) when the ball is thrown home.  I think this takes him by surprise (an umpire's biggest enemy) and then he forgets about the force and rules safe because there's no tag.

Why they didn't fix it when they got together, I have no idea.

[law_reb]

My observations/opinions/experiences:

1. Make sure you know the situation before each pitch to try to avoid this issue.

2. If you called safe on this play because you were unaware of it being a force play at the time of the call, and you know all the elements were met by the the fielding team to record the out on the force play(except for your mistake), don't be afraid to get the call correct once you realize you had the situation wrong.  If you aren't sure all the elements were met, then I believe you have to leave your call as is, even if it appears you may have been wrong.  You can't guess.  If this call had been changed, and the hitting team coach questions the reversal, it's an easy explanation.  "I had the situation incorrect.  I called safe originally because there was no tag on your runner.  However, it was a force play at the plate as the bases were loaded.  The catcher had his foot on home plate and possession of the ball prior to the runner touching the base.  We have an out on the force play."  

3. I had this learning experience myself.  High school varsity game.  R1 and less than 2 outs.  Ground ball to F3.  F3 steps on first base, I signal out, and then F3 makes a throw to second base.  F6 has his foot on the bag and catches the ball about shoulder high just before the sliding runner touches second base.  There was no attempt by F6 to tag the runner.  I make a nice "out" call at second base with a big punch out.  As soon as I did the confused look on F6 face made my brain click.  It was not a force play at second.  I knew F6 had not tagged the runner.  I immediately called time, pointed at myself, pointed at second base, made an emphatic safe signal and returned the runner to second base.  The fielding team coach didn't question the reversal.  I know it won't always turn out like that.     

4. It was nice how the coach handled this play with his team.  I know he was on tv and mic'd up, but that wouldn't stop a lot of coaches from blowing a gasket.  The fact they were up 10-0 at the time probably helped him keep his calm as well.

5. I wish I could have heard the conversation between the umpires.

[johnnyg08]

I just love the coaches are forced to act professional and respectful because they are on TV

If this game is 2-1, rather than 10-1, I think you see a bit of a different reaction...yet still professional (likely)    

[basejester]

/\ #4 - they were down by 10 with that run

?

It's 10-1 after the score.  The defense has the 10.

 

 

[stkjock]

?

It's 10-1 after the score.  The defense has the 10.

 

 

opps, guess my memory is failing me... 

[Mudisfun]

ruled it hit the knob and it was in play - the crux of my question is why was R3 called safe?  Ball clearly beats R3 by 8-10' and catcher clearly on the plate with his foot.

 

HU does say something to the catcher when questioned, but never indicates it was OBS, I just do not get this call.

I am not sure even if the HPU wanted to get obstruction that he would be able to sell it at all. I did not see him look towards R3 coming in and basically think this entire play blew up in his face. As stated before I think he was still trying to figure what happened to put the ball in play and he went into vapor lock.

The way the catcher was set up blocking the plate selling OBS was an available option and thankfully R3 chose to slide between F2's legs and did not just take him out.

[JaxRolo]

It's just too much TV pressure for some of these guys.

[RichMSN]

It's just too much TV pressure for some of these guys.

This play is missed the same whether they're on TV or if they're at home working in front of 20 people.

Sometimes the game / situation is just too much for people no matter the circumstance or environment.

There are 3 other umpires on the infield -- this is one of those situations where one of them needs to come in and make sure this is fixed.

[Thunderheads]

This play is missed the same whether they're on TV or if they're at home working in front of 20 people.

Sometimes the game / situation is just too much for people no matter the circumstance or environment.

There are 3 other umpires on the infield -- this is one of those situations where one of them needs to come in and make sure this is fixed.

THIS!!!!!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[umpstu]

A guy could defend obstruction in Little League for this play, but in that case he should sell it emphatically.  There's no reason the catcher should set up on this play like he did, causing the runner to slide, any more than a first baseman should on a play at first.  I'm not sure that's what he called (and I wouldn't have, because the runner is already out at the time he makes his slide).  Is it possible that he just forgot it was a force and then stuck with it?  Sure.

2.0 OBSTRUCTION

. . .

Note:  Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line, or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball.

OBR's "in the act of fielding the ball" is omitted.

I don't think he forced the runner to slide.  I think it's more than likely he didn't realize it was a force and slid to possibly avoid the tag.

[MidAmUmp]

I asked Johnny to upload this video to use as a learning a tool, but I haven't had much time to throw in my 2 cents. I'm going to use this video clip next month at our clinic and try to break it down with our instructors. I think it will lead to a really good discussion. You should come and hear what they have to say! <---shameless plug.

I didn't want this turning into a LL baseball gets what they pay for, umpiring bash and it hasn't been so that's good.

Since we don't know exactly what this umpire & crew had, we have to make several assumptions. I would be curious to know what they had if anyone knows someone "in the know".

Based on that and going off my assumptions, here's my take...

This really is a tough/confusing play from the beginning. I can see where an umpire could get overwhelmed very quickly. We have a check swing. Then we have a ball either hitting the batter or the bat. Then we have the ball rolling into fair territory. This goes to the old adage - there are umpires who make things happen, umpires who watch things happen, and umpires who wonder what happened. In this situation we have an umpire wondering what happened.

The plate umpire did not know what the pitch hit - either the body or the bat. This is a very common situation that we all have encountered. If he had just taken a second he would have been able to read the batter's reaction and would have seen him drop the bat and take off running. At that point, he should have ripped off his mask and gave an emphatic fair signal. However, I believe his initial reaction was panic over check swing/what did it hit. Once he panicked, everything unravels on him.

He never removed his mask. He never signals the ball fair (while the ball was obviously fair, he needs to let the participants know the ball is in play, and the only way to do that is point the ball fair).

Now we have have the throw to the plate. I'm really confused by this. I'm going to assume that he forgot it was a force out. It obvious the catcher had his foot on the plate and had the ball before R3 arrived. Some are speculating he had obstruction. That's possible, but I have to think less likely. Either way, in my opinion he was still overwhelmed wondering what happened on the check swing/what did it hit, and basically shut down on the rest of the play. There's another topic about "keep umpiring"...this would be a good example of "keep umpiring". Umpires either keep umpiring the play or shut down and quit umpiring the play.

What I'd really like to know is what occurred during the crew discussion after the play? Did anyone say, "You know what, this is so f-d up, why don't we just go with a hit by pitch and move everyone up." I have to think a crew of 4 couldn't possibly get together and stick with a safe call on an obvious force out...unless...all of them said "I was watching ___ touch ___ base." As we've seen in other games, most of these guys don't watch the ball, they just stare at their "only responsibility" which is the runner coming to their base.

The things to take away from this play are -

1. When you have a pitch in on the hands, slow down and read the reaction of the batter.

2. Gather that evidence, make a decision and be emphatic with it.

3. Keep umpiring the play.

[basejester]

I don't think he forced the runner to slide.  I think it's more than likely he didn't realize it was a force and slid to possibly avoid the tag.

If the runner comes in standing up, he trucks the catcher and gets ejected.  Sliding on this play is entirely appropriate for the situation, so I don't conclude that the runner is unaware.

 

[basejester]

How do we signal fair on a ball in the middle of the field?  If we go to the 3rd base line on this play, we're in the way.

 

 

[Thunderheads]

How do we signal fair on a ball in the middle of the field?  If we go to the 3rd base line on this play, we're in the way.

 

 

point to signal the ball was in play, and not a hit-by-pitch

[noumpere]

How do we signal fair on a ball in the middle of the field?  If we go to the 3rd base line on this play, we're in the way.

 

 

Point out toward the mound.

 

And, PU should back up from his initial pitch positioning, on the point of the plate.

 

The fact that he was just standing there, with his mask on, makes me agree with MidAmUmp that he wasn't sure wtf was going on. (I just got a chance to watch the video)

[umpstu]

How do we signal fair on a ball in the middle of the field?  If we go to the 3rd base line on this play, we're in the way.

 

 

Maybe 3rd base line extended would be the only way I can think of.

[MidAmUmp]

Maybe 3rd base line extended would be the only way I can think of.

Point of the plate.

[Mudisfun]

Just one thing I noticed... this is a 6 man crew! Even thought they are in the field I can see R/F umpire staring in as well... sad that 6 people missed this.