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goody14

Now, this is a way to end the game!

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So does the security guard picking up the ball cause a dead ball situation and negate the runners not touching up on advancing?

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I don't understand. R1 never touched second and is still at risk of a force out. R2 never touched third.

I have the third out of the inning on a force out, not even an appeal this is live ball action. The umpires were still on the field, the infielders were still on the field in fair territory.

Seriously what are we missing? I would protest.

Advancing to first and home is a base award rule.... this doesn't add up.

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Kicked but not totally. Not a BOB so everyone has to advance. Unfortunately, that was deliberate interference by a person authorized to be on the field. Thus umpires award bases as they see fit. They didn't do that buts that's their story and they are sticking to it. 24 hours to lodge a protest. The runners could have completed their baserunning duties if the outfielder had to go all the way to get the ball and wasn't aided by the authorized person.

Edited by Jimurray

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I don't understand. R1 never touched second and is still at risk of a force out. R2 never touched third.

I have the third out of the inning on a force out, not even an appeal this is live ball action. The umpires were still on the field, the infielders were still on the field in fair territory.

Seriously what are we missing? I would protest.

Advancing to first and home is a base award rule.... this doesn't add up.


Let's disregard the security guard throwing the ball...

Based on the video, does Hamilton tag second base after catching the ball?  If he does, R1 may have been forced out for out two, but the force is then removed on R2 so the tag of third base means nothing (the tag of first obviously means nothing because BR clearly touched first).

Vanover's explanation is incoherent.

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Kicked but not totally. Not a BOB so everyone has to advance. Unfortunately, that was deliberate interference by a person authorized to be on the field. Thus umpires award bases as they see fit. That's their story and they are sticking to it. 24 hours to lodge a protest.

You still have to touch awarded bases though, right?

 

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I'd say Vanover is correct:

4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES. 
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

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In 4.09(b) "the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base" is a *necessary* condition on the game being ended. It is not a sufficient condition. In other words, the game is not over just because R3 touched home base and BR touched 1B. (For example, if there are two outs one could still force someone else at 2B, and the inning is ended, not the game.)

Edited by JHSump
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I'd say Vanover is correct:

4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES. 
(b) When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

Seems like this is the correct answer to the rule. Doesn't have be be a ball 4 or hit batter. R3 touched home, BR touched first, that's all that needed to happen.

Edited by jpperez14

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R3 touched home, BR touched first, that's all that needed to happen.

Actually, no.

4.09(b) does not support that conclusion. See my reply just above yours. R3 touching home and BR touching 1B are not all that's needed.

Vanover's explanation looks incorrect to me.

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Actually, no.

4.09(b) does not support that conclusion. See my reply just above yours. R3 touching home and BR touching 1B are not all that's needed.

Vanover's explanation looks incorrect to me.

I see the differentiation you're making, but I don't read that from the rules because even in the comments that follow the rule, there is no mention of other criteria.

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I see the differentiation you're making, but I don't read that from the rules because even in the comments that follow the rule, there is no mention of other criteria.

The other criteria aren't mentioned right there below 4.09, but they are present in the rules, elsewhere. Certainly, if R1 and R2 are forced out at 2B and 3B, then the inning ends despite R3 reaching home and the BR reaching 1B, and the game is not over.

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It's dissapointing that members and MLB umpires didn't get this right. 

 

Bases loaded 1 out  .Ground ball to 3B. F5 steps on third and throws to 2ND for 3rd out. Does run score ?

 

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The other criteria aren't mentioned right there below 4.09, but they are present in the rules, elsewhere. Certainly, if R1 and R2 are forced out at 2B and 3B, then the inning ends despite R3 reaching home and the BR reaching 1B, and the game is not over.

It's dissapointing that members and MLB umpires didn't get this right. 

 

Bases loaded 1 out  .Ground ball to 3B. F5 steps on third and throws to 2ND for 3rd out. Does run score ?

 

If it weren't for 4.09b, I'd agree with you guys.  But 4.09b to me reads like an exception to the other rules governing scoring and that unless additional language is built in to the rule, it reads as if all the criteria in a last-inning, game-winning, run-scoring scenario is met by what happened in this game (and of course, we're ignoring the security guy picking up the ball anyway).

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If it weren't for 4.09b, I'd agree with you guys.  But 4.09b to me reads like an exception to the other rules governing scoring and that unless additional language is built in to the rule, it reads as if all the criteria in a last-inning, game-winning, run-scoring scenario is met by what happened in this game (and of course, we're ignoring the security guy picking up the ball anyway).

Wow

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It's dissapointing that members and MLB umpires didn't get this right. 

 

Bases loaded 1 out  .Ground ball to 3B. F5 steps on third and throws to 2ND for 3rd out. Does run score ?

 

Exactly. I have no idea in hell how people are trying to justify this with the requirement for R3 and the BR to advance. They did, but that does not instantly end the game.

I think they were caught with their pants down.

Yes, this is the definition of Merkle's Boner.

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Security guard notwithstanding, looks like the force out of R1 occurred first, which removes the force on R2; hence, no double play and the game is over on the fielder's choice. Had they tagged third base before tagging second base, this would be an interesting protest what with the umpires having de facto declared the ball dead on the game-ending hit (base touches of B1, R3). This of course means there were no valid appeals lodged on R1 and R2 (because the ball was 'dead', or more accurately, no longer live, due to the game having been ended).

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If it weren't for 4.09b, I'd agree with you guys.  But 4.09b to me reads like an exception to the other rules governing scoring and that unless additional language is built in to the rule, it reads as if all the criteria in a last-inning, game-winning, run-scoring scenario is met by what happened in this game (and of course, we're ignoring the security guy picking up the ball anyway).

4.09 (b) covers when a run scores due to an award (BB, HBP, etc). It does not cover when a game ending run scores as a result of a batted ball. In that instance all runners have to touch. 

Security guard notwithstanding, looks like the force out of R1 occurred first, which removes the force on R2; hence, no double play and the game is over on the fielder's choice. Had they tagged third base before tagging second base, this would be an interesting protest what with the umpires having de facto declared the ball dead on the game-ending hit (base touches of B1, R3). This of course means there were no valid appeals lodged on R1 and R2 (because the ball was 'dead', or more accurately, no longer live, due to the game having been ended).

This is a real interesting take on the situation. So if the force out on R2 is removed due to the bases being tagged out of order, R2 can still be called out for abandonment but I think this becomes a time play. If R3 scored first, then game over.

The bigger issue in my mind is that the umpires did not let the Reds appeal. They clearly stayed on the field. There is a shot of one of their infielders just hanging out around the mound. So you have a situation where there were technically no appeals but only because they were not allowed to do it!

If I were the Reds and ultimately I lose because I never formally appealed, I think I would be pretty upset.

Edited by goody14

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4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES. 
(b)  any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

 

Layman's interpretation - Doesn't a base hit count as "any other play" and therefor the rule becomes applicable?

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I have the B-R out for passing R1 after legally touching 1B for out number 2.  BR being out removes all force plays.

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4.09
HOW A TEAM SCORES. 
(b)  any other play with the bases full which forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base.

 

Layman's interpretation - Doesn't a base hit count as "any other play" and therefor the rule becomes applicable?

You guys are misunderstanding the wording in 4.09(b). It gives the *necessary* but not *sufficient* conditions to end the game. It precisely, exactly, unambiguously states that the game cannot end until R3 crosses home and BR reaches first. It does not say those events are all that are necessary. The wording *means* those events are not sufficient. There is no doubt about this, given the structure of the wording of the rule.

Perfect example of why the game cannot be over just because R3 crossed home and BR reached 1B, given by @Jimurray: If the batter had grounded to F5 who then stepped on 3B and threw to F4 for a force at 2B, you would not be arguing that R3 reaching home and the BR reaching first had ended the game!

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we need to do something to shut Byrnes up .......he's a flipping baffoon!!!!!!!!

Sorry, Jeff.  I'm not going to watch/listen to this.  Mondays are bad enough...

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