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Granting "Time"


umpire_scott

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5 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

Why do object so much to doing things that are routinely done in pro ball? No herm there. Why do you perceive harm at your levels?

 

Couple things:

In pro ball, the chance of them doing something really stupid is slightly less then on an amateur field. Not too often you watch F5 air mail the ball back tot he pitcher in an MLB game.
In pro ball, once a play is completed, if the ball was hit or touched dirt, it is being replaced. So time is called actually a ton in pro ball, you just may not notice it due to TV camera angles.
I have not watched a pro fielder hold a glove on a prone runner for what seems like forever. The runner diving back into base doesn't ask for time typically at the pro level.

Calling time just so F6 can throw the ball back to F1 20 feet away, or for F2 to step in front of the plate to give signals is not part of the game and should be discouraged. The more time is out, the less that can happen, good or bad. We are taught as umpires, at least at the non-pro level to try and limit the amount of time the ball is out of play. We do that by not calling time when time is not required. 

 

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On 9/21/2022 at 1:08 PM, Lewis 88 said:

On this topic can the base coach request time for the player, or must the player request for the time out.  I do a lot of youth games and anytime there's a slide damn near,  coach wants time and yells for it.  I usually wait until the player asks for it.  Is that the correct call or can a coach request it for the kid?

What do you do when a coach requests time to go talk to his pitcher, or making a sub...you wait for one of the players to call it?

Anybody can request time...only you can grant it...you also don't need to wait for anyone to ask to call it.

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On 11/1/2022 at 8:26 AM, Rich Ives said:

Why do object so much to doing things that are routinely done in pro ball? No herm there. Why do you perceive harm at your levels?

 

Well, we don't have the budget to use 100 baseballs every game, nor fund a third-party instant replay review system, nor pay the $150k/yr minimum per umpire...unless Phil Cuzzi is taking $65/game and nobody told me.

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On 11/1/2022 at 9:26 AM, Rich Ives said:

Why do object so much to doing things that are routinely done in pro ball? No herm there. Why do you perceive harm at your levels?

 

*cringe*

 

When can we learn that OBR should NEVER be used for youth sports?

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14 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

*cringe*

 

When can we learn that OBR should NEVER be used for youth sports?

Or at the very least recognize there's OBR pro and OBR practical.

 

12 hours ago, Catch18 said:


Same for some age groups w/ Fed. The sideshow that accompanies the cringe watching 9U muddle through U3K.

Agreed - no U3K until ~U12, no IFF until U14.

I'd also say up to U10 shouldn't have an outfield - if the kid hits ANYTHING that reaches the grass let them do the home run trot.  No need to have kids bored in the outfield and playing with flowers, no need to worry (at this age) in rotating infield to outfielder equal time...and the best part is you can have smaller rosters...kids get more at bats in games, and you can have more teams.   

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1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Agreed - no U3K until ~U12, no IFF until U14.

Agree with no U3K, disagree about no IFF.  

Keeping IFF for younger ages gets the players and coaches into a mode where they are actually learning the rules of the game.  I do agree that at that age there's no such thing as "ordinary effort" -- it's a fricken miracle if they catch it. 

The reasons often given for no IFF:  kids probably won't catch it, too confusing to remember, why penalize the batting team -- sells the players short, and (IMHO) misses the point of the rule. 

Infield Fly teaches game awareness and forces the coaches to actually learn the rules...  When the coaches and players are starting out, we as umpires *want* them learning all the rules.  Makes our life easier down the line.

 

I'd also say up to U10 shouldn't have an outfield - if the kid hits ANYTHING that reaches the grass let them do the home run trot. 

I do like the sentiment, but I also disagree here.  Young players need to learn proper outfield play and coaches *really* need to emphasize it.  I agree completely -- kids don't want to stand in the outfield.  So it's on the coaches to *make* playing the outfield fun in practice, and teaching them correctly helps players get into the mode of always paying attention on the field.

Sorry that was a little long...  :) Can you tell I spent a lot of time coaching baseball when I wasn't behind the plate? 

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3 hours ago, BrainFreeze said:

Sorry that was a little long...  :) Can you tell I spent a lot of time coaching baseball when I wasn't behind the plate? 

I spent ALL my time coaching.

Respectfully disagree - the IFF for the exact reason you state...at that age, especially at the rec level, there is no ordinary effort.  Beyond that, there are ridiculously small number of players who have the capacity to let the ball fall to get the cheap double play, and even fewer who could (with their teammates) pull it off.  At those younger ages the IFF does indeed reward the defense, as opposed to protecting the offence, which is the true and only purpose of the rule.  It creates enough confusion as it is for adults...it's chaos for the youngsters.  Most importantly, the rule just isn't needed at this level.

The game is more easily learned by the youngsters in stages...graduate them to the next level - don't throw it all at once.   In a similar mindset, at the youngest ages I teach my infielders to throw to first on ground balls always - don't care if there's a runner on first and the easy force is there...get the basics down first, then we'll graduate to more situational play.

Same with the outfield...we can dispute the age (maybe U8 for boys, U10 for girls), but the reality is at a certain age the ball hardly ever leaves the infield...at those ages we could go two or three games with neither team hitting a ball out of the infield.  That is not doing those outfielders any good.  If anything, it may make them resent the game, even with rotations - kind of sucks when you at least two innings every game you're not going to have the ball hit to you.   Teaching those kids to play outfield at that age is virtually pointless.  Sure, you could do it in practices, but it's never applied in game.  And, again especially at the rec levels, your practice and game time is limited as it is, why focus it on a fundamental they don't yet need.   The benefits of more at bats, more teams, more play time in infield situations far outweigh any possible benefits of some outfield drills in practices.   There's time for that later.   Same concept...graduate to it...you could pretty much introduce outfield and IFF at roughly 11-12 years old, and not be behind, at all, a team that had those concepts two years earlier.   Been there, done that, proven it.  

Most kids don't have their depth perception fully formed before that age either, making outfield even harder for them to grasp, and making it less likely for them to like/appreciate it....then they hate it or resist it...or in some situations see it as punishment...or the place where you put your worst players.

Once we got past U12 and into U14, if there was any residual push back, my message was really simple, as we got into more fixed positions..."yeah, I know 8 of you want to play shortstop...how many shortstops are on the field?   Oh...crazy...how many outfielders are there?"

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11 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Or at the very least recognize there's OBR pro and OBR practical.

 

Agreed - no U3K until ~U12, no IFF until U14.

I'd also say up to U10 shouldn't have an outfield - if the kid hits ANYTHING that reaches the grass let them do the home run trot.  No need to have kids bored in the outfield and playing with flowers, no need to worry (at this age) in rotating infield to outfielder equal time...and the best part is you can have smaller rosters...kids get more at bats in games, and you can have more teams.   

 

LOL ... during my first year of coaching 8u softball we made a brilliant observation: the outfield fence had nothing to do with home runs.  It was to prevent the outfielders from wandering over to the playground.  Of course, my AC and I figured this out when we had to stop a girl from climbing the fence to get to the playground.  We failed twice.  We looked out there and she was just gone.  The third time we figured out what was happening.  (Her mom and little brother were at the playground.)

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On 11/3/2022 at 8:06 PM, The Man in Blue said:

*cringe*

 

When can we learn that OBR should NEVER be used for youth sports?

I don't know, brother...probably about the same time we can learn that adult rec league players have no business playing OBR and have no business playing 9 innings of baseball on a 95+ degree day. Not a sermon, just an observation...we love their game fees but, they are not making a good choice with respect to their ruleset. Use OBR as a basis for your rules, yes...but make changes out of respect for the players' abilities.

~Dawg

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  • 5 months later...

I'll grant time to the batter if the pitcher is trying to ice him. Hell, I usually need to blink my eyes. At the same time, I require the batter to keep one foot in the box and to be ready. I hate the play wrist bands, how may plays could they possibly need? One player told me they had 30 different combinations for bunt. WTF? 

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On 4/25/2023 at 9:14 AM, Mister B said:

I'll grant time to the batter if the pitcher is trying to ice him. Hell, I usually need to blink my eyes. At the same time, I require the batter to keep one foot in the box and to be ready. I hate the play wrist bands, how may plays could they possibly need? One player told me they had 30 different combinations for bunt. WTF? 

Here is some news when it comes to high school baseball.  At its June rules meeting, the NFHS will be taking a very serious look at electronic communication between coaches in the dugout and defensive players.

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On 4/24/2023 at 10:53 PM, UMP45 said:

Stop the  pitcher from pitching.

OK, misunderstanding on my part. I thought you were protecting a runner after he had slid into a base. However, how do you protect a batter without calling time?  If you put your hand out to keep the pitcher from pitching, that’s the same as calling time. So how do you stop the pitcher from pitching?

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6 hours ago, calablue said:

OK, misunderstanding on my part. I thought you were protecting a runner after he had slid into a base. However, how do you protect a batter without calling time?  If you put your hand out to keep the pitcher from pitching, that’s the same as calling time. So how do you stop the pitcher from pitching?

If the batter isn't ready and the pitcher starts his motion just stop him.

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12 hours ago, UMP45 said:

If the batter isn't ready and the pitcher starts his motion just stop him.

If that pitcher pitches when the batter is not ready, he has committed a Quick Pitch and should be penalized appropriately. 

If I stop that pitch, I have denied the offensive team the benefit of that penalty.  

Given that, why should I stop that pitcher from pitching?

 

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17 minutes ago, elares said:

If that pitcher pitches when the batter is not ready, he has committed a Quick Pitch and should be penalized appropriately. 

If I stop that pitch, I have denied the offensive team the benefit of that penalty.  

Given that, why should I stop that pitcher from pitching?

Because it's not worth the risk of injury to the batter.

If you're so eager to penalize someone, warn the pitcher not to try to quick pitch again. If he does it, you can eject him for failing to obey you.

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59 minutes ago, maven said:

Because it's not worth the risk of injury to the batter.

If you're so eager to penalize someone, warn the pitcher not to try to quick pitch again. If he does it, you can eject him for failing to obey you.

I am not eager to penalize.  I'm just trying to find my way.  Thanks for replying.

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1 hour ago, elares said:

I am not eager to penalize.  I'm just trying to find my way.  Thanks for replying.

The worry about denying a team the advantage of a penalty might suggest a concern with fairness, or something less admirable. At instructional levels, it's often better to prevent the infraction instead of imposing a penalty.

But fairness is a priority clearly second to safety. And where safety is concerned, preventing the infraction is always better in amateur baseball, where nobody makes enough money to warrant elevated risk of injury.

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On 4/25/2023 at 8:02 AM, JSam21 said:

How do you do that?

MLB rulset can do a quick pitch. NCAA can as well. 

5.07 (a)(2)If, however, in the umpire’s judgment, a pitcher
delivers the ball in a deliberate effort to catch the batter off
guard, this delivery shall be deemed a quick pitch, for which the
penalty is a ball.

 

6.02(a)(5) comment: A quick pitch is an illegal pitch.
Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the
batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box. With runners on base
the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The
quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted

As far as calling a quick pitch, this is something that would have been a problem in 2015, but probably wouldn't right now. To a coach, just say, "it's basically the Scherzer rule. It's a penalty if you're pitching before the batter has a chance to get ready." 

I think of it akin to RLI. Seven years ago, it probably would have gotten you an angry coach. But now it's been called in the World Series multiple times, and coaches have accepted that the rule may be called. I had a 15U game a few years ago, and my partner called RLI. Kid started to argue, but head coach at third base yelled at him, "shut up. It's a stupid rule, but he got the rule right." 

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Add me to the list of guys who don't grant time EVERY TIME it is asked for. Big school V game the other night, play at home where f1 is backing up f2, f2 hands f1 the ball and he asks for time (to walk back to the mound) I say, "do you need a conference " he responds "no" I said, then no timeout. Coach says, "I've been doing this 33 years and never had time not granted!" I said "reset your clock. I just didn't grant it" (we have a good rapport) . 

He wasn't happy and between innings as he was bringing me balls, he says that they coach their kids to ask for time every time the ball comes back to the infield. Ughhh

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