Foul Tip

[Paul Chilson]

I just saw this play during the Tigers vs. Reds game so MLB rules of course. Batter has 2 strikes a fouls it directly back to the catcher's mitt. The catcher doesn't catch the ball, but it ricochets up into the air. The catcher then dives and during his second attempt secures the ball for a catch. Is this still a legal "foul tip"? What about other rule sets?

[johnnyg08]

Legal in FED, NCAA, & OBR

[blue23ll]

The key is that the ball hit the catchers glove first.

[maven]

Yes, this is a foul tip. What makes it a foul tip is:

1. It's a batted ball, and
2. It goes directly back and hits the catcher's mitt or hand, and
3. The catcher (and only the catcher) catches in flight.

Failing any of these, it is not a foul tip. The interval between the batted ball striking F2's mitt and the catch is not specified: usually, it's instantaneous, but it need not be. (Note that, though OBR does not specify that F2 must catch it, the PBUC interp does.)

According to Wendelstedt, even a pitch that bounces in the dirt can be a foul tip, provided it meets the requirements. (That interp authoritatively settles a long, long debate....)

[Mad Mike]

Yes, this is a foul tip. What makes it a foul tip is:

1. It's a batted ball, and
2. It goes directly back and hits the catcher's mitt or hand, and
3. The catcher (and only the catcher) catches in flight.

Failing any of these, it is not a foul tip. The interval between the batted ball striking F2's mitt and the catch is not specified: usually, it's instantaneous, but it need not be. (Note that, though OBR does not specify that F2 must catch it, the PBUC interp does.)

According to Wendelstedt, even a pitch that bounces in the dirt can be a foul tip, provided it meets the requirements. (That interp authoritatively settles a long, long debate....)

​Nice catch on the last one Maven! I had to think about that for a second. So, what Wendlestedt is saying is that a pitched ball that hits the dirt, THEN is swung at by the batter and fouled off into the catcher's glove or hand, and is then caught is ruled a foul tip. (For those of you with the BRD, see Section 76 for the Interpretation 80-76.)

[Tksjewelry]

Hey @Maven can you quote that Wendelstedt interpretation for me please. 

[Richvee]

Yes, this is a foul tip. What makes it a foul tip is:

1. It's a batted ball, and
2. It goes directly back and hits the catcher's mitt or hand, and
3. The catcher (and only the catcher) catches in flight.

 

According to Wendelstedt, even a pitch that bounces in the dirt can be a foul tip, provided it meets the requirements. (That interp authoritatively settles a long, long debate....)

​OK, I'm a little confused.

2015 OBR 5.05(a)(3)

If a pitch touches the ground and bounces through the zone it is a "ball." If such a pitch touches a batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3). (Rule 2.00 (ball) Comment)

Edited June 17, 2015 by Richvee

[Rich Ives]

​OK, I'm a little confused.

2015 OBR 5.05(a)(3)

If a pitch touches the ground and bounces through the zone it is a "ball." If such a pitch touches a batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3). (Rule 2.00 (ball) Comment)

​It is no longer a pitch. It has become a batted ball. Look at the old definition of ball that is referenced in the new rule. "If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight."

[noumpere]

​OK, I'm a little confused.

2015 OBR 5.05(a)(3)

If a pitch touches the ground and bounces through the zone it is a "ball." If such a pitch touches a batter, he shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of rule 5.05(b) and 5.09(a)(3). (Rule 2.00 (ball) Comment)

​You also need to read the comment just above that in 5.05(a):

 

Rule 5.05(a) Comment (Rule 2.00 (Ball) Comment): If the batter

hits a pitch that touches the ground first, the ensuing action

shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight.

 

So, yes, it's a little bit confusing, at first, and even contradictory -- just because they re-organized the rules doesn't mean they fixed the 234 known errors.  It's why J/R held out for so long that it couldn't be a caught strike 3.  He's come around, though.

 

A "foul tip" is usually the same as a "swing and a miss."  This is one of the two exceptions that have been well documented on the interwebs.

[Thunderheads]

go to :45 ............

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/8879974/v170691683

[Richvee]

​You also need to read the comment just above that in 5.05(a):

 

Rule 5.05(a) Comment (Rule 2.00 (Ball) Comment): If the batter

hits a pitch that touches the ground first, the ensuing action

shall be the same as if he hit the ball in flight.

 

So, yes, it's a little bit confusing, at first, and even contradictory -- just because they re-organized the rules doesn't mean they fixed the 234 known errors.  It's why J/R held out for so long that it couldn't be a caught strike 3.  He's come around, though.

 

A "foul tip" is usually the same as a "swing and a miss."  This is one of the two exceptions that have been well documented on the interwebs.

​Thanks. The way I read it now, in the reorganized version,  it looks like  5.05(a)Comment only applies to 5.01(a)(1) "He hits a fair ball", and 5.05(3) clarifies a pitch that bounces cannot be caught for a third strike. Confusing indeed.

[maven]

​Thanks. The way I read it now, in the reorganized version,  it looks like  5.05(a)Comment only applies to 5.01(a)(1) "He hits a fair ball", and 5.05(3) clarifies a pitch that bounces cannot be caught for a third strike. Confusing indeed.

​"The only thing a bounced pitch cannot be is a called strike."

[Replacematt]

​"The only thing a bounced pitch cannot be is a called strike."

​ Well, given some umpires...

[johnnyg08]

​ Well, given some umpires...

​I'd grab it if I needed it.  #potstir

[maven]

​ Well, given some umpires...

​Right: should have added, "by rule."

[Replacematt]

​I'd grab it if I needed it.  #potstir

​Yeah. I know. 

[Senor Azul]

For Tksjewelry--from the 2014 edition Carl Childress' BRD on page 65 in section 76 (as previously cited by Mr. Mad Mike):

Official Interpretation: If a pitched ball bounces in the dirt and then is hit sharp and direct to the catcher's glove or hand, and is then caught, this shall be a foul tip. quoted from Mr. Wendelstedt's rules manual on pages 4-5.

 

 

[Aging_Arbiter]

<picturing a batter with a 3 wood>