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Umpire Over Ruling Without Conferencing with You

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My first post and let me say I enjoy the forums.  Since my first post I will let you know my experience etc and then the scenario. I'm 42, umpired from age 13-21 youth ball.  Jumped back in last year and doing youth and HS.  The scenario below happened to me in a 10U AAA Gold Glove Game.

 Runners on 1st and 2nd. Home team is up no outs and it is a 17-3 ballgame bottom of the 3rd. I am in the C position.  Batter hits a bounding ball towards F6 and the runner seeing F6 charging in and veers inside the lane to avoid contact with the ball and fielder. I had no contact made and in my opinion no interference. F6 misses ball runner scores, runner from first advances to 3rd, batter to 2nd.  Here is where it gets interesting. HC from visiting team comes out and says runner interfered and made contact with F6.  I say coach I don’t have that I have the runner avoiding fielder it was close but I have no contact.  HC turns to plate ump and yells you saw him run into our fielder didn’t you and my partner kind of shrugs his shoulders and says yeah.  So now in the middle of the field we have the PU basically saying he saw contact from behind the plate that I did not have nor did I ask help with.

 

In this spot how do you handle what the PU did.  PU is less experienced than I am so it wasn't a matter of experienced umpire taking charge in a hostile situation.  I appreciate all opinions and look forward to the comments.  I will update with how we handled it after I read your comments as I prefer this not to turn into picking apart what we did but rather learn from those more experienced.

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"Coach, it's my call and I had no interference. Now let's play ball". Then head for your position.

Assuming that's really what you had and you're as certain as you can be, you're just doing your job. The plate umpire is the one who breaching protocol. Let him deal with the coach.

And, yes, you can deal with your partner after the game.

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In your situation, PU should have stayed out of it.

Question did you give a "That's nothing" (safe) signal? Might or might not have helped.

Also, if I was PU and had Interference, I would have called it right away and killed the play. That type of interference is often a difficult call for the PU to see depending on where the runner and fielders are.

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If you get a chance to stop the coach from asking your partner, you should do so. ("It's my call.  If you go to him, I will have to eject you.")  That might not have been an option here, because of the timing.

 

Once your partner has publically thrown you under the bus, I think you need to get together away from the coaches and decide what is the likely correct call and go with that.  If you keep your call, the D coach cannot come out again.

 

 

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And I bet the PU never left his position from behind the plate.

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My first post and let me say I enjoy the forums.  Since my first post I will let you know my experience etc and then the scenario. I'm 42, umpired from age 13-21 youth ball.  Jumped back in last year and doing youth and HS.  The scenario below happened to me in a 10U AAA Gold Glove Game.

 Runners on 1st and 2nd. Home team is up no outs and it is a 17-3 ballgame bottom of the 3rd. I am in the C position.  Batter hits a bounding ball towards F6 and the runner seeing F6 charging in and veers inside the lane to avoid contact with the ball and fielder. I had no contact made and in my opinion no interference. F6 misses ball runner scores, runner from first advances to 3rd, batter to 2nd.  Here is where it gets interesting. HC from visiting team comes out and says runner interfered and made contact with F6.  I say coach I don’t have that I have the runner avoiding fielder it was close but I have no contact.  HC turns to plate ump and yells you saw him run into our fielder didn’t you and my partner kind of shrugs his shoulders and says yeah.  So now in the middle of the field we have the PU basically saying he saw contact from behind the plate that I did not have nor did I ask help with.

 

In this spot how do you handle what the PU did.  PU is less experienced than I am so it wasn't a matter of experienced umpire taking charge in a hostile situation.  I appreciate all opinions and look forward to the comments.  I will update with how we handled it after I read your comments as I prefer this not to turn into picking apart what we did but rather learn from those more experienced.

​Just a simple, "It's my call and I have nothing" would suffice.  If the coach or your partner persists, just be strong and keep with what you saw and how you interpreted it.

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Also: contact is not required for runner INT. Hindrance is the key idea. That's neither here nor there regarding your question.

I agree with noumpere: nip it in the bud if you can. If not, then get with your partner: both umpires are entitled to have input for this call, so put your heads together and make a call.

As for reporting it, in your situation I might have had the umpire who is giving up the call announce the crew decision. That is, if the crew decided to go with your no-call, then have PU announce it. If the crew decided to call INT, then you announce it. That way, that umpire can explain to the coach that, with the additional information provided by the partner, it's clear that the runner did/did not interfere.

Not an ideal situation, but perhaps a learning experience for both.

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I have a follow up question: IF you guys were the PU in this situation how would you respond to the HC yelling across the diamond? 

​It depends. If I had something different, I'd probably have seen him coming, cut him off, and gone to talk to my partner to get it right. No yelling across the diamond required.

If I had nothing, I'd be nearby to tell him as much. No yelling across the diamond required.

I don't like yelling.

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I have a follow up question: IF you guys were the PU in this situation how would you respond to the HC yelling across the diamond? 

You need to have some respect here.  We don't throw each other under the bus.  Umpires convene where coaches can not snoop and you tell each other exactly what was seen. As a pu I wouldn't even address the coach just meet with my partner and decide on the correct call

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I have a follow up question: IF you guys were the PU in this situation how would you respond to the HC yelling across the diamond? 

​By telling him that if he wanted to talk to me, he could come over here.  Then, walk to the side opposite his dugout.  When he comes over, tell him that it was your partner's call and you don't appreciate the "call shopping."  Make him walk back to the dugout. ;)

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Thank you everyone for weighing in.  I will address a few things.  The coach after not getting the response he wanted from me turned and yelled.  I had no shot at stopping him.  I agree to cut that off before it starts but I thought he was turning to head back to the dugout, not go the PU. Good point on the safe signal I did not signal anything could have helped.  Good point.  Lastly, no he never left behind the plate.

Ok, so here is what we did right or wrong I post it here in the spirit of learning from those more experienced. 

After my partner throws me under the bus, I'm pissed.  I absolutely never would have answered the coaches question and was in disbelief he did.  So I head over and say what did you see.  He said he saw F6 recoil like contact had been made.  I say well I was right there and I don't have contact (or in my opinion hindrance) and it was a clean play.  He says well I had interference.  So at this point I have the PU publicly answering the call I made differently.  So I turn to the coaches call interference on the runner, call him out, and place the runners on 1st and 2nd now with 1 down.  Fielding team coach is happy, I head back to C and batting team coach comes to PU and wants to know why he was making that call which I did not hear the response.  Two pitches later another run scores and 15 is run differential so game over.  I grab my partner and tell him to speed it up cause I don't want the coach asking me why I didn't make the call in that spot.  After the game we did discuss this at length and I believe that my partners inexperience led to our issue.  He felt like when a coach appeals in a spot like that he's supposed to answer kind of like check swing.  Of course from there some serious schooling took place.  I should have stuck to my guns but if he really felt there was interference then maybe I could have learned something here.  However, my main point was learning from you on what you do when that strange situation comes up when you and your partner goof in front of everyone and the best way to handle.

Thanks again for all the comments.

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THe said he saw F6 recoil like contact had been made.

​IF (and it's a big "if") F6 did "recoil", then it was likely that there was INT, even without contact.

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OBR 2015 updated numbering 8.02(c ) No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

Get with your partner on that.

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This could also be avoided with a good pre-game conference with your partner.  If it still happens, then you can post-game a poke in the eyeball. :D 

 

 

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OBR 2015 updated numbering 8.02(c ) No umpire shall criticize, seek to reverse or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked to do so by the umpire making it.

Get with your partner on that.

​Just for the sake of conversation, let's try the following hypothetical:

14U travel ball. You and your partner are working a double-header. You're PU first game and will switch for the second. R2, 2 outs, batter hits a low pop fly that glances off of F6's glove, hits R2's helmet, and is caught by F4. Your partner calls BR out on the "catch", nobody protests, and the game ends without you going to your partner as he didn't ask for help.

Next game you're BU with an R2, batter hits a low pop fly that glances off of F6's glove, hits R2's helmet, and is caught by F4. You call it correctly and say no catch.

Houston, we have a problem here.

 

 

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​Just for the sake of conversation, let's try the following hypothetical:

14U travel ball. You and your partner are working a double-header. You're PU first game and will switch for the second. R2, 2 outs, batter hits a low pop fly that glances off of F6's glove, hits R2's helmet, and is caught by F4. Your partner calls BR out on the "catch", nobody protests, and the game ends without you going to your partner as he didn't ask for help.

Next game you're BU with an R2, batter hits a low pop fly that glances off of F6's glove, hits R2's helmet, and is caught by F4. You call it correctly and say no catch.

Houston, we have a problem here.

 

 

​That is not a decision -  it's a rule misinterpretation.

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Foregoing the temptation to argue what is and what is not a decision, the point I am trying to make is that while none of us want to step on a partner's toes, there are potential problems inherit in standing idle when a partner messes up a call because he or she doesn't apply a rule properly.

As I said, my comment was for the sake of conversation. I was hoping to encourage discussion on what to do when a partner makes the wrong call because he or she (or me) had the rule wrong. 

 

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Whatever you do to a partner who publicly overturns your call/undermines your authority DO NOT take him into the umpire locker room afterwards and cold cock him and beat his ass to a pulp (even if he deserved it). It will get you fired and the guy whose ass you kicked may seek out a criminal assault warrant against you. Which will necessitate an attorney and maybe a move to another state like it did for a guy I know and used to work a lot of college, men's league and summer tourney ball with. He was the assault committer. He's also a hockey ref so he probably had a distinct advantage in the fight. Especially after he delivered the first punch.

I Still don't know the whole true story on it, nobody is talking, but what I've said above is all accurate. Some other members on here know more but they aren't telling. 

Dont do that no matter how much the putz deserves it.  (Legal lesson over, as you were)

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WOW!  No matter how pissed I was the thought of cold cocking my partner never came to mind.  That is a man that needs therapy and by the sounds of it may have received some courtesy of the state correction facilities.

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​Just for the sake of conversation, let's try the following hypothetical:

14U travel ball. You and your partner are working a double-header. You're PU first game and will switch for the second. R2, 2 outs, batter hits a low pop fly that glances off of F6's glove, hits R2's helmet, and is caught by F4. Your partner calls BR out on the "catch", nobody protests, and the game ends without you going to your partner as he didn't ask for help.

Next game you're BU with an R2, batter hits a low pop fly that glances off of F6's glove, hits R2's helmet, and is caught by F4. You call it correctly and say no catch.

Houston, we have a problem here.

 

 

​I would immediately go to my partner (not in an attention grabbing way) and ask "hey, did that hit the runner?" then follow up with "Then that really shouldn't be a catch" But no protest and he doesn't change it after I bring it up, meh, the calls on him and the game is over.

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@Majordave, I wasn't implying that I would whoop my partners ass.  I was referring to the old "3 stooges" response, of a poke to the eyeball.  Was just an inference and no need for legal representation. :rolleyes:

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I am.  I'd poke him in the eye!   I'd probably even follow it up with a "nyuk nyuk nyuk". 

three_stooges_eye_poke.jpg

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My Pre-game conference quote, "If we have an appeal-able play, pulled foot, swipe tag or bobbled ball, get a time out after everything happens and go to the ump that made the call, if he needs help, we'll get it, if not, then we are playing ball. You'll lose your appeal if you do it wrong. And only you 2 managers are allowed to appeal."

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