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Guest Elbert

1st and third

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Guest Elbert

runners on first and third, regular baseball rules. Can pitcher use a cross-over move to second on the pitch. 13U kids steal on first pitch all the time. Want to stop it and thought the cross over move might help. Can you use this move even if no one on 2nd?

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If the runner is going to second the pitcher may step toward second (and throw there or not).  If the runner from first is not going then it will be a balk.  Be careful in guessing what the runner may or may not do.

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Legal.

Warning,

Coaches who do not understand this will complain loudly.

Also, smitty umpires have been known to balk this.

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The rules do not dictate which "move" a pitcher may use. He may step and throw to an occupied base, or he may step and throw to an unoccupied base if for the purpose of making a play. 8.05(d)

 

Second one of these today.

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This seems a risky move given your situation though, as if the runner doesn't go, it's a balk (and since the throw has to be directly to 2nd, you can't wait and see what the runner does).  Also, if your pitcher hesitates when going past first or anything else to indicate that he is throwing to first or home, you have a balk.  And (as is mentioned above) this rule will get misapplied at lower levels and umpires may get talked into balking it even if the runner is going.  So, if I were coaching, I wouldn't tell a pitcher to do this unless the runner has broken for 2nd.

 

My question is, why not just have F1 pick at first?  If the runner goes on first move, it should still be a pretty easy throw to 2nd to get the out.  Or, try to get your pitcher to step off once in a while.  May catch the guy leaning. 

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Guest Richard Chandler

One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

Only in OBR.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

Only in OBR.

 

 

And only in OBR that has adopted the new rule (many youth leagues have not done so).

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

Only in OBR.

 

 

My assumption was that he was talking about OBR.  His statement: "Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position close enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner" would not make sense under rule sets where feinting to third is legal.

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Guest roothog66

 

 

 

One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

Only in OBR.

 

 

My assumption was that he was talking about OBR.  His statement: "Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position close enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner" would not make sense under rule sets where feinting to third is legal.

 

Right, OBR. By "close enough" my guy is usually practically on the bag. I do want him to have the option of taking out the runner at third if he absent-mindendly broke and I want it to at least look enough like an actual pick to third that he comes back to the bag. So, "close enough" might not be a sufficient explanation. I do it a lot, but, in your opinion, if it looked to much like that was the design, how much of a try at the runner at third would you want to see?

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It doesn't matter if the runner actually goes through with the steal attempt.  If the pitcher makes a move, whether he throws or not, in order to MAKE A PLAY then the move is legal.  If R1 stops and heads back to first after seeing the pitcher make his move to 2B, the move is still legal as the pitcher was making the move to make a play, even though the outcome never cane to fruition.

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Right, OBR. By "close enough" my guy is usually practically on the bag. I do want him to have the option of taking out the runner at third if he absent-mindendly broke and I want it to at least look enough like an actual pick to third that he comes back to the bag. So, "close enough" might not be a sufficient explanation. I do it a lot, but, in your opinion, if it looked to much like that was the design, how much of a try at the runner at third would you want to see?

If F5 is at the base, you need not play on R3 at all. By rule, F1 is permitted to "throw to a base."

 

If F5 is close enough to make a play, he need not make a play to be legal. The rule does not require him to be in the act of making a play when he receives the throw. He might be farther from the base if he is making a play on R3, but it sounds as if you're not mainly intending to play on R3.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

Only in OBR.

 

 

My assumption was that he was talking about OBR.  His statement: "Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position close enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner" would not make sense under rule sets where feinting to third is legal.

 

Right, OBR. By "close enough" my guy is usually practically on the bag. I do want him to have the option of taking out the runner at third if he absent-mindendly broke and I want it to at least look enough like an actual pick to third that he comes back to the bag. So, "close enough" might not be a sufficient explanation. I do it a lot, but, in your opinion, if it looked to much like that was the design, how much of a try at the runner at third would you want to see?

 

 

It's a judgment call all the way.  As @maven said, if the throw is to the bag, then you're golden.  If it's not to the bag, then I need to judge that a play is on for R3.  This would normally involve F5 breaking toward the R3 or the bag prior to F1 throwing over.  But if F5 is 10 feet off the bag, breaks 2 feet toward the bag and then immediately wheels and throws to second base, then that would appear to be a feint to third which I would balk.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

 

Legal.

 

A feint is a fake throw. This is an actual throw.

 

Legal.

 

The throw has to be close enough to be able to make a play.  Using your logic if F1 threw a pick to 1B and F3 never attempted a tag it would be a feint.

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It doesn't matter if the runner actually goes through with the steal attempt.  If the pitcher makes a move, whether he throws or not, in order to MAKE A PLAY then the move is legal.  If R1 stops and heads back to first after seeing the pitcher make his move to 2B, the move is still legal as the pitcher was making the move to make a play, even though the outcome never cane to fruition.

 

In OBR it does matter.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

 

Legal.

 

A feint is a fake throw. This is an actual throw.

 

Legal.

 

The throw has to be close enough to be able to make a play.  Using your logic if F1 threw a pick to 1B and F3 never attempted a tag it would be a feint.

 

 

You're right - it's not a feint (poor choice of terminology on my part), but it sure isn't legal.  Throw to the base, or to the fielder making a play.

 

1. R1 & R3.  F5 playing 10 feet off the bag.  As RH F1 starts to raise his free foot, F5 breaks for the bag and F1 throws to F5 while he's 8 feet off the base who then takes 2 steps towards the bag to tag the runner.  The play isn't "close" because R3 sniffed it out and made it back easily.  Even though the play wasn't close, it's legal.

 

2. R1 & R3.  F5 is playing 10 feet off the bag.  As RH F1 starts to raise his free foot, R1 breaks for second, F5 breaks toward the 3B bag and F1 throws to F5 while he's 8 feet off the base.  Instead of making the play on R3 who is diving back, F5 immediately wheels and throws to F4 and R1 is out at second.  Balk.

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A feint is a fake throw. This is an actual throw.

A feint can be a throw. That is the basis for the interpretation that a throw to F3 (and now, F5) has to be able to make a play for it to be legal. If they are out of position, it is considered a feint.

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A feint is a fake throw. This is an actual throw.

A feint can be a throw. That is the basis for the interpretation that a throw to F3 (and now, F5) has to be able to make a play for it to be legal. If they are out of position, it is considered a feint.

 

 

You're both right. :)

 

The rule requires stepping and throwing to 1B (and now, in some versions, 3B). Stepping and throwing to a fielder well away from the base and not making or in position to make a play is feinting a throw to a base.

 

One can feint a throw to a base by not throwing, or by throwing somewhere other than the base.

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

 

Legal.

 

A feint is a fake throw. This is an actual throw.

 

Legal.

 

The throw has to be close enough to be able to make a play.  Using your logic if F1 threw a pick to 1B and F3 never attempted a tag it would be a feint.

 

 

You're right - it's not a feint (poor choice of terminology on my part), but it sure isn't legal.  Throw to the base, or to the fielder making a play.

 

1. R1 & R3.  F5 playing 10 feet off the bag.  As RH F1 starts to raise his free foot, F5 breaks for the bag and F1 throws to F5 while he's 8 feet off the base who then takes 2 steps towards the bag to tag the runner.  The play isn't "close" because R3 sniffed it out and made it back easily.  Even though the play wasn't close, it's legal.

 

2. R1 & R3.  F5 is playing 10 feet off the bag.  As RH F1 starts to raise his free foot, R1 breaks for second, F5 breaks toward the 3B bag and F1 throws to F5 while he's 8 feet off the base.  Instead of making the play on R3 who is diving back, F5 immediately wheels and throws to F4 and R1 is out at second.  Balk.

 

 

Neither one of those is what's in the Post 6.  Post 6 said: "Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position close enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner."

 

LEGAL!

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It doesn't matter if the runner actually goes through with the steal attempt.  If the pitcher makes a move, whether he throws or not, in order to MAKE A PLAY then the move is legal.  If R1 stops and heads back to first after seeing the pitcher make his move to 2B, the move is still legal as the pitcher was making the move to make a play, even though the outcome never cane to fruition.

 

In OBR it does matter.

 

Not nearly as much as it used to, given the new wording ("

demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance")

 

And, in a practical matter, not at all (as long as there was at least a feint toward second by R1).

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Guest roothog66

 

 

It doesn't matter if the runner actually goes through with the steal attempt.  If the pitcher makes a move, whether he throws or not, in order to MAKE A PLAY then the move is legal.  If R1 stops and heads back to first after seeing the pitcher make his move to 2B, the move is still legal as the pitcher was making the move to make a play, even though the outcome never cane to fruition.

 

In OBR it does matter.

 

Not nearly as much as it used to, given the new wording ("

demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance")

 

And, in a practical matter, not at all (as long as there was at least a feint toward second by R1).

 

I'd add that new comments are usually in response to something. here, they may have seen some confusion regarding "making a play." I know in the past, if you brought this up, you'd get differing opinions on what that meant in relation to the runner at first. Some thought an actual break had to happen, others that a feint was sufficient, and still others often viewed it as meaning "at least half-way between 1st and 2nd." I'm well known for using the move described in the OP, however was surprised that the committee found the need for the new comment (albeit pleasantly surprised).

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One move I found works very well in this situation is to pick to third. The third baseman must understand that the purpose of the throw to third isn't to pick off the runner there, but to relay the ball to the second baseman and get the runner from first. It's an easy out and gets the runner at third diving back into the bag, so the risk of him stealing home on the play is virtually eliminated. Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position clos enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner.

 

I would be very careful with this.  If it's apparent to me that you are throwing to F5 for the sole purpose of getting the out at second, then this is a feint to third and a balk.  Just being "close enough" doesn't satisfy the requirement, IMO.  The throw to third must either be to the bag, or to F5 who is making a play on the runner AT THIRD.

 

 

Legal.

 

A feint is a fake throw. This is an actual throw.

 

Legal.

 

The throw has to be close enough to be able to make a play.  Using your logic if F1 threw a pick to 1B and F3 never attempted a tag it would be a feint.

 

 

You're right - it's not a feint (poor choice of terminology on my part), but it sure isn't legal.  Throw to the base, or to the fielder making a play.

 

1. R1 & R3.  F5 playing 10 feet off the bag.  As RH F1 starts to raise his free foot, F5 breaks for the bag and F1 throws to F5 while he's 8 feet off the base who then takes 2 steps towards the bag to tag the runner.  The play isn't "close" because R3 sniffed it out and made it back easily.  Even though the play wasn't close, it's legal.

 

2. R1 & R3.  F5 is playing 10 feet off the bag.  As RH F1 starts to raise his free foot, R1 breaks for second, F5 breaks toward the 3B bag and F1 throws to F5 while he's 8 feet off the base.  Instead of making the play on R3 who is diving back, F5 immediately wheels and throws to F4 and R1 is out at second.  Balk.

 

 

Neither one of those is what's in the Post 6.  Post 6 said: "Your guy at third just needs to keep in mind he needs to be in a position close enough to third to theoretically make a play on the runner."

 

LEGAL!

 

 

If you are reading that statement as he is close enough to the bag for it to be considered a throw to the bag, then I agree with the absolute nature of your post.  I merely told him to be careful because "close enough to theoretically make a play on the runner" is a grey area.  If F5 is off the bag but could theoretically make a play on R3, but doesn't and, instead, throws to second - then that's likely a balk.  If F5 is off the bag, then I better be convinced that they were playing on R3 before making that throw to second.

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It doesn't matter if the runner actually goes through with the steal attempt.  If the pitcher makes a move, whether he throws or not, in order to MAKE A PLAY then the move is legal.  If R1 stops and heads back to first after seeing the pitcher make his move to 2B, the move is still legal as the pitcher was making the move to make a play, even though the outcome never cane to fruition.

 

In OBR it does matter. 

 

8.05 (d) to me seems like it does not matter.  The comment states that "When determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire should consider whether a runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base."

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