Batter-Runner (Puig) Attempts for 2B?

[MrBlue2U]

Hi all, I'm a noob to this site and have a rule interpretation discussion to start.  Hopefully this is the right place?

 

As you watch this play, try to forget that it is Yasiel Puig and imagine it's a random faceless, nameless kid at the highest level you officiate.  Batter slaps an infield single up the middle (draws a throw, which gets away from F3).  After overrunning first base, batter-runner "reacts" to seeing that the ball got away.  I would suggest you pause the video at this point (when he starts walking back to first base) and ask yourself whether you would call him out if he gets tagged.  I'll spoil it for you -- he does get tagged in the video.  I'd like to challenge you to form your own opinion without knowing what Tim Welke called on this one, and bring that untainted opinion into the discussion. 

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/v32517075/

 

In your judgment, did he "attempt to run to second?"  Why or why not?  Do you have specific criteria that you use in making this type of call?

 

I have my opinion and will share it.  For now, I'd like to open the floor for discussion.  My hope is that a healthy discussion will ensue, where pros and cons of both sides are offered, and by the end of it, you (we, each of us) will be better prepared for how you will make this call the next time you see it happen on your field. 

 

The pertinent OBR rule is listed here:

 

7.08  Any runner is out when:

(j) He fails to return at once to first base after overrunning or oversliding that base. If

he attempts to run to second he is out when tagged. If, after overrunning or overs-

liding first base he starts toward the dugout, or toward his position, and fails to

return to first base at once, he is out, on appeal, when he or the base is tagged;

Rule 7.08(j) Comment: Runner who touches first base in overrunning and is declared safe by

the umpire has, within the intent of Rule 4.09(a) “reached first base†and any run which scores on such

a play counts, even though the runner subsequently becomes the third out for failure to return “at

once,†as covered in Rule 7.08(j).

 

2014_official_baseball_rules.pdf

 

 

The pertinent NCAA rule is listed here:

 

Rule 8, Section 5  A runner is out when:

 

b. After reaching first base safely, the runner leaves the baseline in an obvious
move to continue an attempt to advance to the next base and is tagged

 

2013-14 NCAA Baseball Rules Book.pdf

 

I don't have access to a FED rulebook, sorry.

 

[afaber12]

First off, welcome!

 

I watched it once, and like waiting for an appeal of a missed base or left to early to happen, I was waiting for the final element (the tag itself) to bang the out. For me, he definitely made an attempt to second (which he quickly abandoned): as he goes into his stutter step beyond the base to stop himself, he changes direction in an arc towards second. Though my T-Ball training suggests that as long as you stay on the foul side of the line you're safe when running through first - which looks to be Mr Puig's thinking as he looks down at the line when he stops and turns around, and again after being called out - obviously you can be on the foul side and be at risk of a tag, or be on the fair side and not be at risk.

 

If it was anyone else you wouldn't expect them to make this mistake again, but given its Puig I figure its more a case of how long before it happens again. It does seem that his baserunning IQ is a little lower than the average.

 

Edit: Also, is it just me or is Puig wearing some sort of earpiece, headset thing? It looks to me like he's either listening to music or a motivational speech, or he's on the phone to someone in the dugout so they can give him instructions.

 

[Chip]

To me, it looks like he contemplates advancing, but I'm not sure I would interpret it as an attempt to go to second. It really is nothing more than a slight lean and some awkward stutter steps. If I was calling in real time, I think I'd have him safe. That said, if I were a replay official, I'd probably let the call stand for lack of convincing evidence one way or the other.

[scrounge]

I'm pretty much with Chip, I wouldn't call that an attempt or feint to advance but I wouldn't overturn on replay either (IMO, this shouldn't be subject to review in the first place).

[JaxRolo]

Here is the attempt

 

[pnewton]

Agree with Chip and Scrounge, I am not sure that I see him making any physical move toward second.  He certainly does "stop" running through the base awkwardly as if preparing to go to second.  For me, and the levels I work, I believe I need to see a step toward second to justify the out.  MLB level is a different story.

[maven]

I don't mean to discourage the OP and generally welcome the opportunity to discuss plays. However, I do not think the way the game is called in MLB is a good guide to calling amateur baseball.

 

So we might distinguish 2 questions:

 

1. Did Welke get the call right for MLB? For pro ball generally?

 

2. Would or should we make the same call in amateur ball.

 

I don't have an opinion about (1), other than to say that it wouldn't be overturned on replay.

 

Regarding (2), I agree with the views posted above: for amateur ball I need more than a look and a lean to count as an attempt (FED adds "... or feint...") to advance.

[BalkHawk]

I don't have access to a FED rulebook, sorry.

NFHS-

8-2-7: a batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

[noumpere]

It's very close to an attempt -- the last stutter step he changes his angle a bit toward second.

 

In amateur ball I would look for more -- but not much more.

 

I don't have access to a FED rulebook, sorry.

NFHS-
8-2-7: a batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or faint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

 

That would make being tagged out easy!

[BalkHawk]

I don't have access to a FED rulebook, sorry.

NFHS-

8-2-7: a batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or faint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

That would make being tagged out easy!

F'n auto cowrekt...

[Thunderheads]

I'm moving this to the professional section.

 

I don't have an attempt here ......

 

MrBlue2U ... Welcome sir!!!

[law_reb]

I don't have an attempt or feint in high school baseball.  I have him stopping and walking back to first base.  To me, he never even turned to second base.  He looked over his shoulder, saw the ball was ovferthrown, took a step to the right, and then stutter-stepped to a stop.               

[MrBlue2U]

Thank you all for the discussion.  I said I would offer my opinion, so here it is...

 

In my opinion, the example provided by Puig on this "case play" is about as gray as you can get.  He definitely "reacted" to the ball getting away, but you can defensibly argue both out and safe.  There is no black and white ruling. 

 

I can say that if this were my call to make, I would not call the B-R out.  I would base that judgment on these criteria:

 

--There was no definite step toward second base. 

--The only movement toward second base was an instinctual lean while he read the ball and fielders.

-- I expect ballplayers to hustle, and (aside from the lazy stroll back to first base,) this player was hustling, but in my judgment did not make an actual attempt to advance.

--The runner certainly showed *intent* to advance, but in my judgment intent does not equal attempt  (all runners by their nature have the intention of advancing the basepaths)

 

On the other side of the coin, you could justifiably argue the out call with this criteria:

 

--The B-R did more than simply overrun first base.  He reacted to the overthrow, in essence creating the need for the judgment call and giving the umpire the crappy end of the stick.

--The whole reason we allow the B-R to overrun first base is to leg out an infield single without injuring himself by stopping on a dime at first base itself.  Any sign of intent to advance beyond beating out an infield single equates to an attempt to advance to the next base, and he is subject to being tagged out. 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with the comments above that MLB (really any professional baseball) is a different animal with different expectations than the levels that most of us work.  I like what @maven had to say -- I won't say that Welke got this call right or wrong, but it wouldn't be overturned if it were replayable.  I would really like to be a fly in the lockerroom during the post-game discussion of this play and ruling after the crew reviewed it on video. 

 

Thanks again for the input.  Have a great season guys, and remember that you're only as good as you are on the next pitch / play.  Be prepared for it...

[MrBlue2U]

PS -- I would also agree that some situational umpiring may be in order given that this is Yasiel Puig (or any other uber-talented player with a 10-cent head).  Perhaps Welke (or any other MLB ump) wouldn't make this call on any other player, but he did in this case in an attempt to help Puig raise his baserunning IQ.  I for one wouldn't blame him, especially in the top of the first inning with no runners on...

[dumbdumb]

 

I don't have access to a FED rulebook, sorry.

NFHS-

8-2-7: a batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

 

What are examples of attempts and what are examples of feints. Seems like a feint could just be a lean of the shoulder or head like kids do when trying to fake each other out or give a "come on" command with the tilt of the head.

I might get to a FED game this week and just wanted to know what to look for between types of attempts and types of feints.

[Thunderheads]

At the request of Mrblue2u....I have moved this thread to a more generic forum because it covers different rule sets therefore I placed it under the rules section, sorry for the confusion Jeff - via Tapatalk

[PGOLDEN88]

Safe, no attempt.

[charliej47]

In the clinic I attended we discussed these types of calls.  I was told that if the runer reacts to the loose ball ha has made the attempt.

 

A couple of years later when I was umping a slow-pitch men's tourney, I used that rule interp and called the out when the batter leaned toward 2nd on the over-run.  Both F3 and I thought the same thing and F3 tagged him and I called him out.

 

The 1st base coach went ballistic and argued that the runner had to take a step and I stood by my call.  I ended up tossing the coach because he would not stop arguing the judgement call.