Protest

[CricketChapman]

On top of umpiring, I also serve my local league on the Board of Directors and I am on the protest committee.

Here's the sitch:  OBR game.  R2 going to third, bad throw by F6 (I believe - definitely was not first play by an infielder on a batted ball) goes over F5's head and either (a) lodges in the fence between the tarp and wiring, or (b) disappears underneath the tarp near the fence.  The umpires call "time" and award the runner home.  Defensive manager protests, but I don't know why (will find out when formal protest is filed in written form).  I know I am jumping the gun, but I want some initial feedback even before I receive the formal protest.

 

Assuming (b), what authority is there that the ball going under the tarp is "out-of-play?"  7.05(g) is instructive, and 9.01(c ) is a last resort (and probably inapplicable, anyway).  Are there any additional interpretations specifically addressing the tarp?  Does anyone have access to the universal ground rules?  We do not have specific in-park ground rules (and please don't criticize the umpires for not covering this in pregame - that is not what I am looking for).

I witnessed the play and could not tell if (a) or (b) happened.  I do know, from my vantage point behind the bleachers, the ball was not visible.

[grayhawk]

If this ball is considered lodged, I would say yours was as well:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v31812917/?query=review

 

I would think the only thing the coach could protest was whether or not the ball should have been declared lodged and out of play.  The base award is a no brainer because R2 would get awarded home whether it was TOP or TOT.

[CricketChapman]

If this ball is considered lodged, I would say yours was as well:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v31812917/?query=review

 

I would think the only thing the coach could protest was whether or not the ball should have been declared lodged and out of play.  The base award is a no brainer because R2 would get awarded home whether it was TOP or TOT.

I am thinking it is a judgment call by the umpires as to whether the ball was lodged or not, and thus, it is not protestable.  I think the Braves-Nats replay backs up this idea, because the call was reviewed with the understanding that Marvin Hudson had adjudged the ball was not stuck under the fence.

Even assuming it is not a judgment call, I did find two of the Universal Ground Rules, which state: 

(1) A ball lodging behind or under canvas on field tarp is out of play.

(2) A ball striking the field tarp and rebounding onto the playing field is in play.

 

Quite obviously the ball did not strike the tarp and rebound onto the field, so I am thinking (1) applies.

 

[UmpJM]

No brainer. Umpire judged ball was lodged. Two bases. Protest denied.

 

JM

[CricketChapman]

No brainer. Umpire judged ball was lodged. Two bases. Protest denied.

 

JM

I agree, but which rule should be cited? 7.05(g)? Or the ground rule? Or both?

[UmpJM]

What rule is the coach suggesting is being misapplied? (He has to have one, or you can dismiss his protest.)

 

It's the only one you need to address. (Though you might "cite" OTHER rules in supporting your ultimate adjudication of the protest.)

 

If his "beef" is that the umpire judged the ball "lodged" when it went behind the tarp, he is NOT arguing a rule. He is in disagreement with the umpire's judgment. Which is his right, but it's not protestable.The rules which mention specific types of "lodging" (screen, fence, umpire equipment, etc) do not provide an exhaustive enumerative list. They are (common) examples of how balls become "lodged" during a baseball game. There are other ways balls can become lodged during a baseball game that are NOT explicitly and specifically mentioned in the rules. Like rolling behind a tarp, for example. If this was not covered during the ground rules (which it probably ought have been) the umpire decides how to deal with it. The coach has a legitimate beef if it wasn't covered at the plate conference, but it is not a protestable beef.

 

See what rule he thinks was misapplied. I've been blindsided before when the coach had a completely DIFFERENT issue than the issue I thought he had.

 

You may feel free to "ping me" here when you get the protest if you would like my perspective.

 

JM

[VolUmp]

Just using a little legal speak,

 

I would read the protest report VERY carefully, and if he is still claiming a rule was misapplied, then the protest is "DENIED" and the league keeps his $$$$.  If he is unsavvy enough to lodge a protest over a judgment call, then you have to "REFUSE" to hear the protest and efuse his money.

 

If we're not allowed to constructively criticize the officials for not pregaming this with the head coaches, then I hope you have a precedent at this park that balls adjudged to be lodged, trapped, or lost in the tarps are dead, and book rule the runners two bases from TOT (throw) or 1 base from TOP (Pitch).  Precedent means EVERYTHING in a hearing such as the one you are discussing, when nothing was pregamed.

[VolUmp]

If this ball is considered lodged, I would say yours was as well:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v31812917/?query=review

 

Good thing Rich Ives wasn't at this plate meeting in the Nats/Braves game. 

He wouldn't have agreed to the ground rule.

I guess he'd be ejected and then his assistant would have to deal with it.

Rich has never "agreed to a ground rule which calls a playable ball dead."

 

That ball was clearly lodged according to the ground rule.

It was also clearly playable.

[Mad Mike]

I need a little help on a protest that was lodged the following morning by the manager for a misapplication of a time limit rule. We have a 1:45 minute time limit on games. Umpire said his digital watch showed game time start at 6:00 pm. Last out in the 5th inning occurred and umpire stated his watch showed 7:46pm. Unfortunately, umpire did not record the time with score keeper and/or announce start time. (Lesson for another day)

 

Coach claims start time was 6:01pm.....and last out was at 7:45pm.  With all that in context, what I really want to know is an interpretation anyone can give me about the timing of the protest. Normally, all protests must be filed with the umpire on the field before the next pitch is made or runner is retired. However, in this case, there was no "next pitch" or "runner retired" as the inning ended. The last sentence of the rule cited below is a sticking point for me. Do you guys read the rule to mean that all protests still have to be filed on the field at the time the ruling is made, or in the case of a game ending ruling, the manager has until the next day at Noon to file the protest?

 

(Because this is exactly what happened. There was no protest filed on the field at the end of the game with the umpire. However, now I have a protest sitting in my email box this morning.)

 

We operate under OBR rules. OBR Rule 4.19 notes (in part), "Whenever a manager protests a game because of alleged misapplication of the rules the protest will not be recognized unless the umpires are notified at the time the play under protest occurs and before the next pitch is made or runner is retired. A protest arising on a game ending play may be filed until 12:00 noon the following day with the League Office."

 

So, give me your thoughts, interpretations, and/or experience dealing with protests. Thanks!

[noumpere]

I'd give them until noon -- but I'd also say it's the umpire's watch that counts.

[Rich Ives]

 

If this ball is considered lodged, I would say yours was as well:

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v31812917/?query=review

 

Good thing Rich Ives wasn't at this plate meeting in the Nats/Braves game. 

He wouldn't have agreed to the ground rule.

I guess he'd be ejected and then his assistant would have to deal with it.

Rich has never "agreed to a ground rule which calls a playable ball dead."

 

 

 

Where did you come up with that? Doesn't sound like me at all. I have often said "lodged is lodged".

 

OTOH, a groundrule cannot override a book rule. That I'd argue, as should anyone, and the umpire should agree as it IS a rule misapplication to allow such.

[Rich Ives]

I need a little help on a protest that was lodged the following morning by the manager for a misapplication of a time limit rule. We have a 1:45 minute time limit on games. Umpire said his digital watch showed game time start at 6:00 pm. Last out in the 5th inning occurred and umpire stated his watch showed 7:46pm. Unfortunately, umpire did not record the time with score keeper and/or announce start time. (Lesson for another day)

 

Coach claims start time was 6:01pm.....and last out was at 7:45pm.  With all that in context, what I really want to know is an interpretation anyone can give me about the timing of the protest. Normally, all protests must be filed with the umpire on the field before the next pitch is made or runner is retired. However, in this case, there was no "next pitch" or "runner retired" as the inning ended. The last sentence of the rule cited below is a sticking point for me. Do you guys read the rule to mean that all protests still have to be filed on the field at the time the ruling is made, or in the case of a game ending ruling, the manager has until the next day at Noon to file the protest?

 

(Because this is exactly what happened. There was no protest filed on the field at the end of the game with the umpire. However, now I have a protest sitting in my email box this morning.)

 

We operate under OBR rules. OBR Rule 4.19 notes (in part), "Whenever a manager protests a game because of alleged misapplication of the rules the protest will not be recognized unless the umpires are notified at the time the play under protest occurs and before the next pitch is made or runner is retired. A protest arising on a game ending play may be filed until 12:00 noon the following day with the League Office."

 

So, give me your thoughts, interpretations, and/or experience dealing with protests. Thanks!

 

The noon limit applies here.  The "time's up" declaration was the last "play" in the game.  You have to count it as the last play because the real rules don't have time limits so this is the equivalent.

 

Your next step after the protest meeting is to codify who has the official time.

 

 

BTW - Just for the exactness freaks, a digital watch will read 6:00 all the way from 6:00:00 to 6:00:59

[Replacematt]

The relevant question is now "Noon on whose watch?"

[Justin]

The relevant question is now "Noon on whose watch?"

The guy whose watch says 12:01 when the protest is filed.

[hill2933]

Had the same thing happen a few years ago in our rec league. Turned into a big S-storm. I went out shortly after and bought cheap kitchen timers and put them with every scorekeeper. We set the time and played until the timer beeped. No need to synchronize watches at the plate meeting and let someone else worry about the clock. Also allowed us to stop time easliy if we had weather or other delays. It worked really well and the are usually $1 or less.

[BigUmpire]

I keep the time. Period.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jocko]

I don't announce the time, as I use a stopwatch. The time of day is irrelevant. I will always show ANYONE that asks, and when we get close, I remind them of to the minute remaining time. If time expires during the inning, I let both HCs know. But the time is by MY watch. IDGAF what theirs says. Savvy coaches start their stopwatch at the plate meeting when I do.

Side note* The next inning begins the instant the 3rd out is made. If there are 20 seconds left on the clock, we're playing. They paid for a full time limit game. They GET a full game. If I have to be there an extra 20 minutes......so be it. They're not there for us, we're there BECAUSE of them.

[BigUmpire]

Take note young umpires.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kylejt]

Note to leagues that use a time limit: Instead of "no new inning....." or some sort of drop dead/revert, switch to "one more inning after X minutes" (We use 100 minutes).

 

It keeps the nonsense of clock working down to a minimum, and everyone knows what's coming. Our scorekeepers keep the clock, note when 100 minutes hit, and let the umpire know in between innings. Simple.

 

The one thing that would be a protest, in the original situation, would be the umpire's decision on when the inning ended, or the next one started. I've seen many rookie umpires look at their clock, when the third out is made, see there's still time, but determine that the next inning couldn't start before the bell rang. That would be a misapplication of when an inning starts.

[Jocko]

Had the same thing happen a few years ago in our rec league. Turned into a big S-storm. I went out shortly after and bought cheap kitchen timers and put them with every scorekeeper. We set the time and played until the timer beeped. No need to synchronize watches at the plate meeting and let someone else worry about the clock. Also allowed us to stop time easliy if we had weather or other delays. It worked really well and the are usually $1 or less.

rats being ras, I can visualise someone manipulating the clock in their favor. Then you have the whole fiasco of which on is correct. And, without an umpire keeping the time, you have no clue. And if you have an umoire keeping time, why worry with scor/timekeepers. Not knocking it, if it works for you. Just know that some would/could use it to their advantage.

I tell em at my plate meeting that the BU has the official game timer.

[SoCal Lurker]

Savvy coaches start their stopwatch at the plate meeting when I do.

 

 

Hmm.  I thought the time started when the U said "play"?  Is the plate meeting always the rule or is it a ROC issue?

[Larry in TN]

Hmm.  I thought the time started when the U said "play"?  Is the plate meeting always the rule or is it a ROC issue?

The clock starts when the umpire says the clock starts.

One umpire in our league (LL Juniors) will laugh when I ask him the game time (I'm the scorer) for a game that's starting "on time". I'd think that he'd appreciate that I ask instead of assuming! Most of them turn around and tell me right after the plate meeting because they know I record it (though I'm probably the only one who does!)

[Jocko]

Plate meeting goes like this:

Legally equipped

Exchange Lineups

Ground Rules (tournament rules)

The clock will start on the flip. Heads, you're home (points to 1B side). Tales, You're home (points to 3B side)

*coin flip. Partner starts the clock when the coin leaves my hand.

Warmups and infielders throwing happens while the clock is running.

[treydawgmt]

Around here clock starts at the first pitch. Well, really a few seconds before because I announce time, make mental note of it or start stopwatch (did I know I had a timed game before I left the house that day? Otherwise I don't carry a watch), say play. Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

[mjr_2013]

Note to leagues that use a time limit: Instead of "no new inning....." or some sort of drop dead/revert, switch to "one more inning after X minutes" (We use 100 minutes).

 

It keeps the nonsense of clock working down to a minimum, and everyone knows what's coming. Our scorekeepers keep the clock, note when 100 minutes hit, and let the umpire know in between innings. Simple.

 

The one thing that would be a protest, in the original situation, would be the umpire's decision on when the inning ended, or the next one started. I've seen many rookie umpires look at their clock, when the third out is made, see there's still time, but determine that the next inning couldn't start before the bell rang. That would be a misapplication of when an inning starts.

 

One of my experienced umpires did this this year and the team correctly filed a protest. I was P---ED!!

 

There were four minutes left and the home team scored the go-ahead run with two outs. The umps just walked off the field because "he didn't feel they'd get the third out in four minutes". I didn't get to go over to that field until after the fact. The coach eventually dropped the protest because even if validated (which it probably would have been), the four minutes would have had to have been played prior to the first playoff game, which would have been a TOTAL mess, with one team showing up not knowing if they'd be playing, one team with serious pitch count concerns should the game be extended, etc.