Prepare for 2014: Play 6

[maven]

SITUATION: R2, outs don't matter. The batter singles to RF. R2 is obstructed by F5 as he rounds 3B. The throw from F9 pulls F2 up the line, where he catches the ball and turns to tag R2. R2 slaps at F2's glove, and the ball comes loose. R2 then touches the plate. The BR is between 1B and 2B when R2 scores, and he advances to 3B before F1 can recover the ball.

 

RULING: ??

[scrounge]

Hmm, interesting. If FED, R2 already has home as a result of the OBS award being a minimum of 1 base beyond the 3B already attained, UNLESS the slap is so hard or unsporting to rise to the level of MC. R2 has the right to advance home but has to do so legally. MC would most certainly not be legal and maybe could even say a violation of 8.4.2 c (I think, rule book not on me), prohibition of intentional contact resulting in immediate out but not an ejection. Otherwise, I think R2 is awarded home...

[Specks]

For Fed: The OBS grants R2 home the slap gets INT by a retired runner, BR out. Then again I could be way off as I have been more and more lately.

[UmpTTS43]

OBR/NCAA. R2 out for INT. BR returns to last legally aquired base at the time of INT.

I would suspect the same for FED.

[DVA7130]

OBR/NCAA. R2 out for INT. BR returns to last legally aquired base at the time of INT.

^^ This.

[maven]

For Fed: The OBS grants R2 home the slap gets INT by a retired runner, BR out. Then again I could be way off as I have been more and more lately.

 

R2 has not touched the plate when he slaps the ball out of F2's glove, so he is not a "teammate" or "retired runner."

[Specks]

 

For Fed: The OBS grants R2 home the slap gets INT by a retired runner, BR out. Then again I could be way off as I have been more and more lately.

 

R2 has not touched the plate when he slaps the ball out of F2's glove, so he is not a "teammate" or "retired runner."

 

Makes sense.

[conbo61]

SITUATION: R2, outs don't matter. The batter singles to RF. R2 is obstructed by F5 as he rounds 3B. The throw from F9 pulls F2 up the line, where he catches the ball and turns to tag R2. R2 slaps at F2's glove, and the ball comes loose. R2 then touches the plate. The BR is between 1B and 2B when R2 scores, and he advances to 3B before F1 can recover the ball.

 

RULING: ??

 

OBS is a DDB, (you have to let it play out), therefore, I would have R2 out on the interference and BR goes back to 1st.

[Richvee]

In FED...If the umpire thought F2 had a play on BR @2nd, can he call BR out also? I think he can. 

[alex7]

R2 is not awarded home, as has been stated above, due to the OBS by F5.  It depends if it happens before or after the bag.  Most of the time with OBS by an F5, it'll happen a few steps before the runner has acquired 3rd base, so he's only protected for SURE to 3B (1 base minimum).  Be careful not to assume he is granted home by penalty if the OBS happens before the runner touches 3rd.

[ricka56]

That's a sticky wicket. Fed CB 8.3.2H has some elements of the OP (obstruction and then interference). In the CB play, different offensive players are obstructed/commit interference. But there is an interesting point in this CB play (not sure whether it applies to the OP). It says" The umpire shall deal with the obstruction first, since this is the order in which the infractions occurred." The obstructed runner didn't commit the interference, they let him score, and call BR out for the interference that BR committed.

 

But the OP is different. Even though the umpires have obstruction and might award R2 HP, he is still required to play the game according to the rules. It is like a runner being called out on a missed awarded HP appeal...runner has to follow the rules and is at risk of being called out if he doesn't. I'd enforce the immediate DB interference, R2 out, BR back to 1B...in Fed/OBR (the games I work).  

[grayhawk]

Good question. Common sense and fair play tells me that if the OBS happened when R2 was on or beyond 3B, then score him (1 base award in Fed) and put BR back to first. Both teams penalized for their stupidity.

In OBR, R2 is out for interference and BR back to first.

[ricka56]

Good question. Common sense and fair play tells me that if the OBS happened when R2 was on or beyond 3B, then score him (1 base award in Fed) and put BR back to first. Both teams penalized for their stupidity.

In OBR, R2 is out for interference and BR back to first.

 

What rule code differentiated OBR and Fed on this play? In OBR, this is type B (a DDB) and all obstruction in Fed is DDB...so no difference there. And this type of interference is immediate DB for both rule sets. I don't know of any rule differences that would require different ruling outcomes.

[grayhawk]

Good question. Common sense and fair play tells me that if the OBS happened when R2 was on or beyond 3B, then score him (1 base award in Fed) and put BR back to first. Both teams penalized for their stupidity.

In OBR, R2 is out for interference and BR back to first.

What rule code differentiated OBR and Fed on this play? In OBR, this is type B (a DDB) and all obstruction in Fed is DDB...so no difference there. And this type of interference is immediate DB for both rule sets. I don't know of any rule differences that would require different ruling outcomes.

There's an automatic one base award in fed for the obstruction.

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[ricka56]

 

 

Good question. Common sense and fair play tells me that if the OBS happened when R2 was on or beyond 3B, then score him (1 base award in Fed) and put BR back to first. Both teams penalized for their stupidity.

In OBR, R2 is out for interference and BR back to first.

What rule code differentiated OBR and Fed on this play? In OBR, this is type B (a DDB) and all obstruction in Fed is DDB...so no difference there. And this type of interference is immediate DB for both rule sets. I don't know of any rule differences that would require different ruling outcomes. There's an automatic one base award in fed for the obstruction.

What if in an OBR game, the umpire would have awarded R2 HP (to negate the obstruction)?... then this rule difference is moot. But the outcomes are different ? Why is R2 out in OBR if he is also to be awarded HP ?

 

[Mike Prince]

 

 

 

Good question. Common sense and fair play tells me that if the OBS happened when R2 was on or beyond 3B, then score him (1 base award in Fed) and put BR back to first. Both teams penalized for their stupidity.

In OBR, R2 is out for interference and BR back to first.

What rule code differentiated OBR and Fed on this play? In OBR, this is type B (a DDB) and all obstruction in Fed is DDB...so no difference there. And this type of interference is immediate DB for both rule sets. I don't know of any rule differences that would require different ruling outcomes. There's an automatic one base award in fed for the obstruction.

What if in an OBR game, the umpire would have awarded R2 HP (to negate the obstruction)?... then this rule difference is moot. But the outcomes are different ? Why is R2 out in OBR if he is also to be awarded HP ?

 

 

 

Seems like there's a few possibilities, at least in OBR.  If R2 is to be awarded home on the OBS, then the BR should be called out on R2's interference on F2.  If on the other hand, in the umpire's judgement R2 would have been out at home absent the OBS, he would be out at home on the INT and BR would be returned to 1B.

 

Disclaimer - I have a lot of off-season rust to shake off, I will not be surprised if upon reviewing my rulebook I am completely wrong here....

 

OK, after more thought I am changing my answer.  Yes, we have OBS and even though home is the award, R2 must get the award legally and is out at home on his INT of F2; BR is returned to 1B.  

[maven]

There's an automatic one base award in fed for the obstruction.

Steve, while that's true, it makes no difference to the ruling in this case. An award is an award, and the issue of the case concerns whether INT trumps an award, or vice versa. The fact that an award is "automatic" changes nothing about the answer to that question or about the basis for ruling on this case.

[maven]

R2 is not awarded home, as has been stated above, due to the OBS by F5.  It depends if it happens before or after the bag.  Most of the time with OBS by an F5, it'll happen a few steps before the runner has acquired 3rd base, so he's only protected for SURE to 3B (1 base minimum).  Be careful not to assume he is granted home by penalty if the OBS happens before the runner touches 3rd.

 

This reasoning is incorrect. The award for OBS must nullify the effect of the OBS. In this case, the defense made a close play on R2 AT THE PLATE. It is reasonable to conclude that, absent the OBS, R2 would have scored ahead of the throw.

 

The proper award is home, regardless of on which side of 3B the OBS occurred. Don't be confused by FED's "mandatory minimum" and short-change the offense.

[Magic]

I would have to agree with Maven on this. Although I sure would have had to think about it before I ruled on it. Had there not been OBS then there wouldn't have been Int. Now what if you had the same scenario but you have R2 trucking F2? Do you score the run and toss R2? Probably how I would have ruled on it had that happened. Not sure I would be right though.

[grayhawk]

 

There's an automatic one base award in fed for the obstruction.

Steve, while that's true, it makes no difference to the ruling in this case. An award is an award, and the issue of the case concerns whether INT trumps an award, or vice versa. The fact that an award is "automatic" changes nothing about the answer to that question or about the basis for ruling on this case.

 

 

It certainly does matter.  If, in our judgement (under OBR), R2 would not have scored absent the interference, then we can get the out.  With an automatic award as in FED, we are compelled to award home (if obstruction happened while R2 was on or beyond 3B).

 

The play in the OP was not clear that R2 would have scored absent the obstruction.  It happened "as he rounded third" and we don't know if this was a small veer from his original path, if there was a slight bump, or if it was something more significant.  Also, the throw was up the line, so it clearly beat R2 before he reached the plate.

 

That said, if I judged that R2 would have scored if not for the obstruction, then I would score him on this play and put BR back to first.  If he trucks F2, then we have a clear set of rules to deal with that situation.

[UmpTTS43]

Just because the OBS occurred prior to the INT, that does not mean the OBS takes precedence. The OBS awards, if any, are made at the conclusion of the play. An obstructed runner must still play within the ruleset. An obstructed runner can be called out for INT, passing a preceding runner, running outside of the running lane during a tag attempt and the like. You cannot get hung up with the mind set that says since the OBS occurred first, you can disregard other infractions.

I am discussing this taking the OBR and NCAA rulebook into account. FED, I'm sure, has some differing interps.

[Rich Ives]

In OBR the umpire can rule whatever he wishes to negate the obstruction. This can include ignoring the INT.

[maven]

In OBR the umpire can rule whatever he wishes to negate the obstruction. This can include ignoring the INT.

 

Disagree. Ignoring INT is not imposing a penalty on the defense, it's failing to impose a penalty on the offense.

 

"The umpire shall then call “Time†and impose such penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction." 7.06(b)

[UmpTTS43]

In OBR the umpire can rule whatever he wishes to negate the obstruction. This can include ignoring the INT.

Disagree. Can you provide examples?

[mstaylor]

Rich, usually you are bang on with the rules, I think here you missed the boat. The interference has to be called, kill it and return BR to first.