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What Would You Do Part IV

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Well that's good to know - I wasn't aware of the  previous discussion.  But in the real world, isn't "No Catch" much more likely to cause confusion?  What is the proper terminology to use when the ball HAS been caught?  I've always let my partner know "That's a catch, Richee."  Maybe I've got that wrong too.

 

the reason No catch wont cause confusion is.... wait for it..... wait for it....

 your also using Hand and arm signals

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Found the thread you're referring to:  http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/55551-catchno-catch/ 

 

Seems the only one who claims that "No Catch" is the "proper terminology" is YOU.  Everyone else seems to agree that using that phrase can lead to confusion.  I'm sticking with my "It's on the ground" call to my partner.  Who knows, it may revitalize my broadcasting career.

 

Let me ask the Million dollar question?.... how many clinics have you been too? Which Umpire School did you go to....?

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"Catch!" and "No Catch!" have always served me well.

 

I did not always use them, but as I worked with better umpires, I paid attention to what they did and when they did something that was different than I did, I would ask why. Then I would listen to their reasoning.

 

:ranton:

Some here have quoted the rules book about its terminology. I prefer to use the mechanics that I have learned from better umpires on the field and in the clinics they have led. Many of these are not succinctly addressed in a rule book or in an umpire manual that I have at my disposal. Perhaps chief among these mechanics is that I try my best to communicate what I think my partner needs to know, especially when he may not see what I see. Things like "Ball's down" or "I'm on the line" are key with runners on and base coverages dependent upon what's happening on the play.

 

I find it so aggravating with people who know everything and are quick to show everyone how smart they are by picking nits that seem so insignificant. I have worked with some "experienced" umpires that I never want to see again, who are experts on the rules and mechanics, but can't umpire to save their life. It isn't always about what it says in the book. I much prefer working with a partner who makes me better or one who wants to get better rather than one who is a clubhouse lawyer.

:rantoff:

My apologies for the rant.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Well that's good to know - I wasn't aware of the  previous discussion.  But in the real world, isn't "No Catch" much more likely to cause confusion?  What is the proper terminology to use when the ball HAS been caught?  I've always let my partner know "That's a catch, Richee."  Maybe I've got that wrong too.

 

the reason No catch wont cause confusion is.... wait for it..... wait for it....

 your also using Hand and arm signals

 

Yeah, but you're communicating for the benefit of your partner as well - and he's...  wait for it... wait for it,,,  NOT LOOKING AT YOU!

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Too funny...I'm not looking because I usually can hear my partner say "catch' or "no-catch" clearly. If I'm not sure if I heard catch or no catch (unlikely, perhaps), then I'm gonna take a peak over my shoulder (when time permits) at my partner for his non-verbal safe/out mechanic .

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Unless runners are off on the pitch in which case you could possibly watch base touches, you should have the tag up lined up with your eyes on the ball regardless of who has the responsibility to make the call.

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:rolleyes:

My thoughts exactly.  What good is a rulebook and mechanics manual anyway.  Especially if using them makes you a better umpire b/c you do know them and can use them to call a game correctly and very well.  What's the point getting them when they are available on, oh I don't know, the internet. 

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"Balls down" is customary around here, but I also am able to recognize that it's a local variation and not the approved, official terminology. "No Catch" is heard on occasion, just not as often.

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One thing to realize from the rant is the quote "experienced".  That does not translate into able to do it correctly.  One has to know how to apply what they know.  But, one should be able to recognize a "Good Ol' Boy" umpire.  Too many equate one who can get along with everyone to be a good umpire as well.  But, fail to see how bad he is until he gets into a real clinic put on by those who have gone to school or at least, work hard to keep up with what the school is teaching.  Or, gets into a real clusterf@&k and doesn't know which way is up and how to EJ those who are running all over him now.  But, hey, at least he kept all of the participants in the game though.

 

Sometimes, simple things like "Catch" and "No catch" can show that difference.  I know b/c I have umpired with too many who use other terminology and don't know what they are doing.  I have a hell of a story from this year umpiring with a guy who likes to use the phrases such as "He's in there" or "No, he got under the tag".  Then, can't remember what to do with bases loaded and a shallow CF hit which turns into R2 staying at 2B and R1 coming with F6 stepping on 2B.  He has to come to me to find out what the call should be though he has been doing it for a few years.  But, hey, at least everyone gets along with him at the plate meeting.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Well that's good to know - I wasn't aware of the  previous discussion.  But in the real world, isn't "No Catch" much more likely to cause confusion?  What is the proper terminology to use when the ball HAS been caught?  I've always let my partner know "That's a catch, Richee."  Maybe I've got that wrong too.

 

the reason No catch wont cause confusion is.... wait for it..... wait for it....

 your also using Hand and arm signals

 

Yeah, but you're communicating for the benefit of your partner as well - and he's...  wait for it... wait for it,,,  NOT LOOKING AT YOU!

 

He's talking apples and you're talking woodchucks.  He is talking about catch/no catch responsibility.  You're talking about crew communication.  Crew communication goes out the window if there is a trouble ball.  Confused players will look at umpires for a ruling if they are unsure if they caught the ball or not.  That's where you say either "That's a catch!" with a very emphatic, over your head, out mechanic -or- "No catch! No catch!" with an emphatic safe mechanic.

 

Yes, partners do not look to the other guy and take their eye off the action.  But let's be honest...we're only talking about 1 situation - fly balls the plate umpire would cover when the base umpire pivots with no one on.  Any other situation (BU going out, PU on the line with runners on, ball in the V or U) both umpires will have their eyes on the ball...or should.  Therefore, if the plate umpire is doing his job and moving into the infield to get a good look at the catch/no catch, the umpires can't possibly be that far apart for there to be any confusion if you said "That's a catch!" or "No catch! No catch!"  So if that's confusing, someone needs to learn to enunciate or see about getting their hearing checked.

 

Now, again I'll say, there's nothing wrong with telling your partner, "The ball's down" on a ball that gets by a fielder and you don't have to rule on a catch/no catch, so he knows he needs to turn on the jets or can slow up.

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Back to the original topic...

I had a similar situation a couple years ago and we screwed it up BAD. With 1 out in the bottom of the 10th with the visitors up by 5, a gray area fly ball was hit to left that the LF opened toward the line then went back.  I was the 3rd base umpire and swung around to line up the catch/tag (R1, R2).  PU didn't communicate that he had the ball.  I didn't take charge and just assumed he knew it was his ball.

 

As Murphy's Law would dictate, the LF gloved the ball and the next thing I saw was the ball rolling away from him on the warning track.  R2 was standing on 2nd at the time it was gloved and advanced to 3rd.  R1 was 1/2 way on contact and advanced to 2nd.  B/R stopped at 1st.  As the ball came back into the infield the offensive head coach yelled, "What do you have?"  I looked at the PU and he was walking towards me with a confused look about him.  I said something that starts with F and ends with UCK and it wasn't Firetruck.  PU called time and we got together and talked.  He was pretty sure the ball was caught and dropped on the transfer.  I told him he was going to have to go with that.

 

He turned around, called it a catch.  The SS had the baseball and threw it to 1st to appeal R1 not tagging up and U1 called him out.  2 outs, game over.  But wait.  The offensive coach alertly realized time had been called, so the appeal couldn't happen.  We huddled again, more to plan our escape.  PU put the ball in play, pitcher appealed, U1 banged him and we fought our way off the field.

 

The moral to this story is 1) Communicate!!! 2) Leave the ball live as long as you possibly can. 3) If no call is made, you don't have a catch.  Let's break it down...

1) Communicate - Someone has to take charge.  It should be the PU in a gray (or not so gray) area.  He has everything in front of him.  He can see the reaction of the base umpire(s), etc.  If he sees it not going right, he needs to take charge, play quarterback, yell, scream, holler, or make a call.

 

2) Leave the ball live as long as you possibly can - All hell can break loose, but leave it live until all continuous action stops.  The video is on here somewhere with the Dodgers/Marlins game last year where there was confusion on a fly ball pop-up/R1 interference up the 1st base line.  The ball went everywhere, no one knew what was going on.  A runner stopped between 2nd & 3rd and he was tagged.  There was Bob Davidson still umpiring.  He called the runner out.  Once everything stopped, then they called time and got together and sorted everything out.  Think of it this way - it's easier to just keep umpiring than to try to figure out what to do with runners because you called time too soon.

 

3) If no call is made, you don't have a catch - This will be controversial, but you have to think about this.  If you don't make a ruling, by default, the ruling must be the ball is alive and in play (in this case - no catch, but in others: fair, safe, etc.).  So actually, we should have never decided to call this play a catch after the fact.  We should have said no catch, took any heat from the defense and moved on.  Because by calling time, huddling, and then ruling it a catch, we put the offense at a major disadvantage.  Once time was called, R1 lost all opportunity to attempt to tag-up.

 

Now, the video...

The PU should have taken charge.  Obviously the ball was his catch/no catch.  One would have to assume he didn't make a call.  I'm going to make an assumption that he is the less experienced of the crew.  He seems to be relying on the BU.

 

The crew should have continued to umpire until the entire play stops.  Rule out or safe assuming the ball wasn't caught.

 

At that point you have to go with a no catch.  1) it was obviously not caught & 2) they didn't rule a catch right away.

 

Get all the participants away and only deal with the coach.  I'm fine with answering a player's question if he's showing respect and is under control.  My answers to a player will be either yes or no and our conversation will be extremely short.

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"Balls down" is customary around here, but I also am able to recognize that it's a local variation and not the approved, official terminology. "No Catch" is heard on occasion, just not as often.
Maybe they need better Instructors in your area?! :wave:

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First, to the Fed rule Book 2014 edition....

 

10-3-i

 

His duties (UIC) include those listed in 10-2-1, 10-2-2 and the following:

   l. Rectify any situation in which an umpire's decision that was reversed has placed either team at a disadvantage.

 

The facts are we do not know what is called by either umpire.

 

A. Let's assume there is a catch call by either umpire. Then a reversal to no catch, no catch or whatever. Who has been placed at a disadantage? The OFFENSE! Your options seem to be one: Place R3 on 3B, R1 on 2B and BR at 1B. You probably eject the defensive manager costing him a $100 fine, a three game suspension, and a mandatory on-line class that costs $75 dollars and must be completed before he can coach again. And it is the crew's fault, they ought to pay his fine. 

 

How can you come up with an out for the defense in this play if you have a reversed call on catch/no catch by F7?

 

B. If you have a no call, or you have a delayed correct no catch call, then the play stands and R2 is out. If the BU or PU calls time before the force is made, then the PU has to use 10-3-l and call R2 out because if you don't then you have harmed the DEFENSE. You then wil have to eject the manager of the offense and he has to do the same thing as the ejected manager in the previous senario. 

 

You also could have a double play by R1 getting thrown out at 2B and R2 being forced or tagged. BU needs to make a call here that is his big mistake. If the PU's view has hung the BU out to dry you can fix that too!  Again, the crew messed up so we do not know what they had, so you don't know for sure. It is very possible to get a DP here if the PU gets help from the BU and the throw beats R1 to 2B..

 

Finally, let's not grind the PU because of his gray bags or bad mechaincal position. Look at what he has to deal with with the F2 he's working behind. If F2 does this all day the zone his team gets should shrink to the size of a water pipe. We should grind the crew for how they handled the play and discussion.

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To completely answer the question in post 1:

 

You must call time and end the play

BU must give a signal on the slide play by R1 at 2B.

Have your nechanically sound meeting. 

 

At meeting.

 

What is call that was made? Was it correct?

Once you solve that, you can decided who is harmed on the play.

Once you know that you can award bases and call outs as necessary to rectify the error.

 

Then you can tell both coaches and try to keep them both from being ejected, and then pray you see neither team the rest of the season. 

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Back to the original topic...

I had a similar situation a couple years ago and we screwed it up BAD. With 1 out in the bottom of the 10th with the visitors up by 5, a gray area fly ball was hit to left that the LF opened toward the line then went back.  I was the 3rd base umpire and swung around to line up the catch/tag (R1, R2).  PU didn't communicate that he had the ball.  I didn't take charge and just assumed he knew it was his ball.

 

As Murphy's Law would dictate, the LF gloved the ball and the next thing I saw was the ball rolling away from him on the warning track.  R2 was standing on 2nd at the time it was gloved and advanced to 3rd.  R1 was 1/2 way on contact and advanced to 2nd.  B/R stopped at 1st.  As the ball came back into the infield the offensive head coach yelled, "What do you have?"  I looked at the PU and he was walking towards me with a confused look about him.  I said something that starts with F and ends with UCK and it wasn't Firetruck.  PU called time and we got together and talked.  He was pretty sure the ball was caught and dropped on the transfer.  I told him he was going to have to go with that.

 

He turned around, called it a catch.  The SS had the baseball and threw it to 1st to appeal R1 not tagging up and U1 called him out.  2 outs, game over.  But wait.  The offensive coach alertly realized time had been called, so the appeal couldn't happen.  We huddled again, more to plan our escape.  PU put the ball in play, pitcher appealed, U1 banged him and we fought our way off the field.

 

The moral to this story is 1) Communicate!!! 2) Leave the ball live as long as you possibly can. 3) If no call is made, you don't have a catch.  Let's break it down...

1) Communicate - Someone has to take charge.  It should be the PU in a gray (or not so gray) area.  He has everything in front of him.  He can see the reaction of the base umpire(s), etc.  If he sees it not going right, he needs to take charge, play quarterback, yell, scream, holler, or make a call.

 

2) Leave the ball live as long as you possibly can - All hell can break loose, but leave it live until all continuous action stops.  The video is on here somewhere with the Dodgers/Marlins game last year where there was confusion on a fly ball pop-up/R1 interference up the 1st base line.  The ball went everywhere, no one knew what was going on.  A runner stopped between 2nd & 3rd and he was tagged.  There was Bob Davidson still umpiring.  He called the runner out.  Once everything stopped, then they called time and got together and sorted everything out.  Think of it this way - it's easier to just keep umpiring than to try to figure out what to do with runners because you called time too soon.

 

3) If no call is made, you don't have a catch - This will be controversial, but you have to think about this.  If you don't make a ruling, by default, the ruling must be the ball is alive and in play (in this case - no catch, but in others: fair, safe, etc.).  So actually, we should have never decided to call this play a catch after the fact.  We should have said no catch, took any heat from the defense and moved on.  Because by calling time, huddling, and then ruling it a catch, we put the offense at a major disadvantage.  Once time was called, R1 lost all opportunity to attempt to tag-up.

 

Now, the video...

The PU should have taken charge.  Obviously the ball was his catch/no catch.  One would have to assume he didn't make a call.  I'm going to make an assumption that he is the less experienced of the crew.  He seems to be relying on the BU.

 

The crew should have continued to umpire until the entire play stops.  Rule out or safe assuming the ball wasn't caught.

 

At that point you have to go with a no catch.  1) it was obviously not caught & 2) they didn't rule a catch right away.

 

Get all the participants away and only deal with the coach.  I'm fine with answering a player's question if he's showing respect and is under control.  My answers to a player will be either yes or no and our conversation will be extremely short.

 

For full disclosure to everyone, I was the PU in the story above.  

 

He assumed I was taking the ball, I assumed he was taking it, and you know what happens when you assume.  I can't say I didn't learn something that day, and I ALWAYS verbalize to the BU in the middle if I'm the PU taking a catch/no-catch now.  

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It doesn't matter if it's a 1,2,3 or 4 man crew... it is everyones responsibility to know the status of the ball. The order of responsibility is:

 

Fair/Foul

Catch/No Catch

Touches/Tags

Everything else...

 

On a trouble catch, even if it isn't in your area of responsibility, every umpire should have their eyes on the ball. Touches and tag ups, although important, become secondary. In this situation someone has to make a call. Even if the call comes late the base or plate umpire has to come up and emphatically sell A call either way. At the end of the day someone has to take charge. Calling nothing should NEVER happen.

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Coaches like to see/hear umpires communicating. Would've been good to get players and coach out of any conversation between umpires. How to deal with situations is really how an umpire can separate himself from every other umpire.

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