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MidAmUmp

What Would You Do Part IV

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Okay...the umpires obviously screwed this up (not throwing any stones).  Let's assume you're one of the umpires on this crew and screwed it up.  What steps would you take to fix this?  How would you handle/defuse the current situation?  What can be done better next time?  What can we learn from this?

 

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First - Call time.

Second - Tell my partner what I have and what I suggest we do

Third - Assuming that my partner agrees ...

I would point at third base and say, "there was a force out at third, the runner is out."

I can't definitively tell by the video if the runner beat the throw to second .. Assuming he didn't beat the throw - I'd point at second and say, "there was a force at second, the runner is out."

If the runner beat the ball, I would award second to the runner and first to the batter-runner.

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Ball takes F7 towards the line... that is PU's catch/no catch call. Simply tell the coach there was no catch, and the runner is forced out at 3rd. BU then needs to decide if R1 was safe at 2nd. 

 

I Learn from this to communicate! As soon as ball is hit towards LF line, PU needs to say, "I've got the ball!" Then make your catch/no catch loud and clear. That would have greatly helped out BU.

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This issue comes down to Did either umpire see the ball hit the ground from their position??? 

 

If one did, then you need to fix it.  If for some strange reason neither one of them saw the ball come loose (Bad angle) then you obviously can't fix anything just because the coach/parents are loosing thier minds.

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I would like to see where the umpires were during the play. I agree it is PU call. His priorities are fair/foul then catch/ no catch. He should have move down the 3rd baseline to look for catch no catch. But since he was wearing grey ball bags I have to assume he was a statue behind the plate. Seems like an easy fix edit her way. I kinda think R2 was going to be out no matter what. So just call him out and play on.

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After calling time, I would get with my partner and SHOO everyone else away so so we can figure out what we saw.  Players and coaches do not have to be privy to the thought process of sorting this out.  As it is shown, it is TOO crowded around the crew.

 

Agree that PU has catch/no catch.  The main issue between the crew is IF EITHER one of them saw the ball hit the ground. If one is certain that they saw it pop free, let the other know and then agree on the F/O at third.  Next issue is the throw back to 2nd.  Did it beat the runner? Discuss and render the calls.

 

On the plus side, at least they did not try to make a play at first.

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PU has to make some kind of effort to get out from behind the plate, calling to his partner that it is his ball.  If he does this and lets everyone know it wasn't a catch, most or all of the mess is gone.  Since he didn't, call time, move the players and coach away from you and your partner and discuss the sitch.  It was a force play at third, so that would be one out.  Your partner is going to have to decide if the runner is out @ second.  Batter-runner is safe @ first unless we have a DP and three outs.  Then prepare for a visit from the other coach cause he ain't gonna be happy.  Communication between the two umpires would have GREATLY improved this situation.  That's what I would have done. 

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I don't know if the PU made a call on the no-catch. I don't know if BU made any call(s). He didn't make any call on the play at 2B. And I'm not sure when/if Time was called. So, I'm not sure what the mess is exactly.  

 

I can't see where the crew ever discussed the play with each other. All they did was respond to what players/coaches were complaining about. This might be the worst part of this debacle.

 

This mess seems fixable (though I wouldn't be surprised if ejections were part of the "solution"). If I'm now put in PU spot, I get my partner away from everyone, and tell him I have no-catch on the fly to LF, what do you (BU) have on the bases? There should be a force out at 3B (1 out) and a close force play at 2B...what do you have (safe/out)?  If we have a DP, and that is the 3rd out, then R3 doesn't score. If R1 is safe at 2B, then R3 scores and we have R2/R1.

 

Then try to explain all this to the OHC/DHC...this would depend on what the crew called (I can't tell). You have to be honest with the coaches if any of the calls/no-calls contributed to the confusion. But no one was ultimately put at jeopardy. "I know we could have handled it better, but in the end, we got the call right. We need to get back to baseball now".

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I agree with everybody, the crew must get together (crew only) and come to a decision. Then break the huddle and explain it to the managers. The part I will focus on is toward the end of the video the DM comes charging on the field and into the crew huddle pointing wildly at LF and 3rd. At that point I quit explaining the decision and start calming the manager down, I'm not discussing ANYTHING with him until he stops gesturing. Once he gets under control, I explain our decision and like @ricka56 says "I know we could have handled it better, but in the end, we got the call right. We need to get back to baseball now".

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I'm on board with everyone that PU needs to step up and get this call catch/no catch.  I'm going to say he saw it but hesitated and thus we have confusion.  It happens at every level. So now Out at 3rd on the force.  I agree again that you have to get everyone no matter how emotional away in order to calmly talk to your partner.  Was he safe at second?  Now if he was not safe at second and the moderator on the video is right that its the 3rd out (no clue from the video).  Then we need to discuss at timing play if its a one run ball game.  Had batter runner achieved 1st and the runner achieved home before the play at 2nd base which my partner deemed him out on.  Looking at the speed I call both would have happened.  Now once we've come to two outs end the inning and run scores, we'd break and render our decision.  Expect both managers to want to know why and what.  I would give them some room/rope for questions b/c I would be asking alot as a manager here.  It takes a better umpire to defuse this then one to just clam up and let the storm pass or eject. 

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Now if he was not safe at second and the moderator on the video is right that its the 3rd out (no clue from the video).  Then we need to discuss at timing play if its a one run ball game.  Had batter runner achieved 1st and the runner achieved home before the play at 2nd base which my partner deemed him out on.  Looking at the speed I call both would have happened.  Now once we've come to two outs end the inning and run scores,  

If there were 2 force outs at 3B and 2B (3rd out)...not a time play...no run scores.

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I'd say there are two things to be learned here:

 

1) Communication - I don't think the BU had any idea what happened in LF. He was looking very confused as the play at 3rd and 2nd occurred... The PU needs to take his time and sell a "BALL IS DOWN!!" If he does that, I think this zoo situation is avoided.

 

2) The Zoo Situation - I think this qualifies. When PU and BU meet, they need to clear the area around them. The players need to be at least off the infield grass, and the coach needs to get in his dugout (and STAY in his dugout). They need to tell each other what they have, THINK about what happened (without players breathing down their necks) and make the call... Someone will be pissed either way. Have the manager come to you, explain the call, let them whine a little, and get back to baseball.

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Posting before I read any responses, so I apologize if I repeat something someone else said.

 

It's very difficult to say what I would do if I was as confused as those umpires appear to be.  Here's what happened, IMO:

 

With the bases loaded and one out (according to someone saying so in the video), F7 makes a diving stab but does not make the catch.  They throw to third base for the force out on R2.  They throw to second base too late to force R1, in my judgement.  So it appears we have R3's run scoring, R2 out at third and runners on first and second with 2 outs.

 

If I was on the crew, I would try to fix it by enforcing the above result.  If I was completely confused, I would work with my partner to unwind what happened and make the ruling that we agree upon.

 

From a game management perspective, after calling time, I would allow the head coach to come out to talk.  I would instruct him to tell his coaches (if they are the ones complaining loudly in the audio) to remain quiet while we speak.  I would ask the players to return to their positions and then hear him out and then tell him I will speak with my partner.  I would ask him to return to his dugout and once we confer, our ruling will be final and there will be no further discussion.

 

What I WOULDN'T do is have a discussion from 15 feet away from the coach and keep repeating "He dropped the ball."

 

It appears that the BU is mighty confused about everything except that F7 did not make the catch.  It's clear he didn't see them throw to third, and I would suspect he missed the play at second as well.  Hopefully, his partner saw those plays and can help him make the right calls here.  What a mess.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

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Maybe PU didn't make a clear call on the catch/no catch. Maybe he did. Seems to me BU doesn't make any calls on the potential force out situations, despite knowing the ball wasn't caught. Seems like the best possible explanation was that he saw the moment the ball was touched by F7, then went looking if R1 and R2 were tagged up. By the time he found the ball again, it was on the ground and presumably doesn't know if it was a catch or not - at least he's not certain. If I'm in his shoes, I'm following the ball for the plays at the bases but trying to check with my partner for a call. As R2 heads to the dugout, I'm calling time and checking what my partner has to confirm what's what. Defensive team may not like only coming up with one out, despite getting R2 more than once, but they didn't lose anything by chasing him the way they did: no one else advanced, and I doubt they lost a shot at getting BR out, beyond the dropped catch of course.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I heard ya! AND I made the out call on F2 at 3rd and the safe call call on R1 at 2nd. No issues here, partner  :nod:

 

I get the feeling if I was ever as confused as BU was there, you wouldn't be doing any more games with me  :confused:

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Well that's good to know - I wasn't aware of the  previous discussion.  But in the real world, isn't "No Catch" much more likely to cause confusion?  What is the proper terminology to use when the ball HAS been caught?  I've always let my partner know "That's a catch, Richee."  Maybe I've got that wrong too.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Found the thread you're referring to:  http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/55551-catchno-catch/ 

 

Seems the only one who claims that "No Catch" is the "proper terminology" is YOU.  Everyone else seems to agree that using that phrase can lead to confusion.  I'm sticking with my "It's on the ground" call to my partner.  Who knows, it may revitalize my broadcasting career.

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Well, "Catch" is the only word in the rulebook.  It doesn't say "It's down" or "Ball on the ground".  Just like it doesn't say "No" or "He's in there".  But, there are those who do that too and think it is correct.  Frankly, I don't care how you do it.  It is all a matter of how high up do you want to umpire in levels.  Then, it matters.

 

I'll stick with "Catch" or "No catch" followed by safe/out signal.  It isn't that difficult for them to understand.  I have been OK with it now for 21 years and will start 22 next year.

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Without reading any one else's responses..... If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball. Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there. If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch! Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.
I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch". Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught. This was recently discussed in another topic. Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster. Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion. Found the thread you're referring to: http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/55551-catchno-catch/ Seems the only one who claims that "No Catch" is the "proper terminology" is YOU. Everyone else seems to agree that using that phrase can lead to confusion. I'm sticking with my "It's on the ground" call to my partner. Who knows, it may revitalize my broadcasting career. Seems like @midAmUmp would be the one to know the proper terminology .

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I've used both in the past, and never had a problem being misunderstood.  If MidAmUmp says "No catch" is the proper terminology, then I certainly wouldn't argue.  While adhering to proper and accepted mechanics whenever possible is important, I think the critical thing is to make a definitive call no matter what happens to come out of your mouth.

 

I think we can agree that if PU had verbalized SOMETHING, then perhaps BU wouldn't have been so confused on the plays that followed.

 

I normally pregame that BU has ALL catch/no catch in the outfield from B or C until I call him off.  In this case, as PU I would have verbalized, "I'm on the line," "I have the ball," "I've got this one, Joe," "I'll take it, Joe" or something that lets him know that I am going to take responsibility for the catch/no catch call.  When I see the catch is not made, then "No catch!" or "Ball's down" - something to let him know that the catch wasn't made so he can rule on plays at 3rd, 2nd and 1st as needed.

 

I know some people pregame that BU has the cone, and PU has all plays that take F7 and F9 towards the foul lines.  I think it's better to have communication, especially when PU is going to take it, so there is no confusion.  This was taught at the clinic I attended before Thanksgiving, and how I have been pregaming it for some time now.

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Without reading any one else's responses.....

 

If I am BU, I would have called R2 out on force at 3B and R1 safe at 2B since it sounded like the runner beat the ball. I did not hear my partner make a call on the play by F7 and the runners are mine. Once my calls were made and I found my partner in my hip pocket I would likely have a conversation about what his call was since F7 was moving to his right on the play and the peanut gallery is barking something about a dropped ball.

 

Regardless of what the initial calls were, my conversation with my partner would be only with my partner, not with the DHC and certainly not with #10 standing right there.

 

If I am PU, I am coming out to my partner to ask him if he heard me yell, â€No catch! No catch!  Ball’s down Richee!†and then get R2 out at 3B on the force.

I would avoid using the phrase "No catch" as in the heat of the moment it can sound like you're saying just "Catch".  Use "Balls down" or "It's on the ground" or any other such phrase that can't be misunderstood

 

No Catch is the proper terminology for announcing that a ball has not been caught.  This was recently discussed in another topic.  Do not use ball is down or it's on the ground...you're not a broadcaster.  Use the proper terminology to avoid confusion.

 

Found the thread you're referring to:  http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/55551-catchno-catch/ 

 

Seems the only one who claims that "No Catch" is the "proper terminology" is YOU.  Everyone else seems to agree that using that phrase can lead to confusion.  I'm sticking with my "It's on the ground" call to my partner.  Who knows, it may revitalize my broadcasting career.

 

Well, since I'm the only one claiming this to be the proper terminology, I'll change my clinic manual. But wait...I just checked...both 5-week schools, the MLB and PBUC manuals, CCA manual, NFHS, Referee Magazine, and a measly 50-page manual from an umpire clinic in Missouri all advocate "That's a catch" and "No catch! No catch!"

 

Damn!  Foiled again by those pesky facts!!!

 

Please tell me you're not relying on message boards to teach you how to umpire.

 

Alright, I'm done being a smartass.

 

Honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with telling your partner "the ball's down" on a ball that get's by an outfielder that is obviously down to all participants but your partner, who has his back to the action.  However, the proper terminology on a Catch/No Catch responsibility is "That's a catch!" or "No catch".  I'm talking about actually making a call on a trouble ball, not communication between your crew.  2 different things.

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