You make the ruling

[grayhawk]

In the spirit of @MidAmUmp and his "What would you do?" series, here is a situation to untangle:

 

R1, R2 with one out.  B3 swings and hits F2's mitt and hits a pop-up towards F4 which is declared an infield fly by BU.  The ball tips off F4's glove and rolls into the outfield.  R2 scores and R1 ends up at third.  B3 is standing on first base.

 

Now what? 

[Rich Ives]

In the spirit of @MidAmUmp and his "What would you do?" series, here is a situation to untangle:

 

R1, R2 with one out.  B3 swings and hits F2's mitt and hits a pop-up towards F4 which is declared an infield fly by BU.  The ball tips off F4's glove and rolls into the outfield.  R2 scores and R1 ends up at third.  B3 is standing on first base.

 

Now what? 

 

Look at the play first.  Batter is out on the IFF and runners advanced.

 

Because the batter did not reach 1B, you  enforce the CI.

 

The enforcement includes the OM having a choice of the CI or the play.  If he takes the CI he has bases loaded with one out.  If he takes the play he has a run, a runner on 3B, and two outs (batter out).

[Richvee]

This^^^

[scrounge]

Hmm....interesting. Without looking it up and just off initial gut reply, I'd break it down as follows:

 

Offense gets choice of results of the play or enforce the catcher's interference/obstruction (my default is FED). So either score the run and B3 is out on the infield fly for 2 outs or bases loaded and 1 out due to enforcing the CI and the other runners being forced to advance, OM's choice.

[Richvee]

I know that in most of the games I work, the chances of the OC knowing he's got an option here are slim to none. What's our proper procedure on such a play? Do we call time at the end of playing action, enforce the CI, place the runners and head back to our positions to resume  the game, or do we call time at the end of playing action and  go to the OC, explain the situation and ask him what he wants? 

[scrounge]

I liken it to football penalty enforcement....if it's obvious and clear that no one would decline the penalty (holding on a play where the offense got a first down), no need to bother asking. But if there's any choice at all, like there is in this case, I'm asking the manager if he wants the play, the run, and 2 outs or does he want bases loaded and one out.

[guyinaredhat]

I know that in most of the games I work, the chances of the OC knowing he's got an option here are slim to none. What's our proper procedure on such a play? Do we call time at the end of playing action, enforce the CI, place the runners and head back to our positions to resume  the game, or do we call time at the end of playing action and  go to the OC, explain the situation and ask him what he wants? 

It's on the manager of the Off. team to come up to you and request it.   Most of the time he'll call time and ask you if there's a way he can get that run scored.  But you shouldn't bring up the option he needs to request it.

[grayhawk]

This is the other direction I was hoping this thread would go (give the option or not).  My opinion is that it is dependent on the level of play.  HS Varsity and above  - being a head coach is likely a real job, so they should know the rules and approaching them about the option is giving them an advantage over the other team.  JV and below - I would go ahead and explain the option.  At those levels, nobody is getting paid living wages to coach, so I do not expect them to know that they have an option on this play.

[ricka56]

 

I know that in most of the games I work, the chances of the OC knowing he's got an option here are slim to none. What's our proper procedure on such a play? Do we call time at the end of playing action, enforce the CI, place the runners and head back to our positions to resume  the game, or do we call time at the end of playing action and  go to the OC, explain the situation and ask him what he wants? 

It's on the manager of the Off. team to come up to you and request it.   Most of the time he'll call time and ask you if there's a way he can get that run scored.  But you shouldn't bring up the option he needs to request it.

 

If its anything below HS varsity level, I am not waiting for him to request the play, I'm asking OHC what he wants. At the varsity level, I'd enforce the CI and wait to see if OHC comes out to question the call. But if OHC does come out, I'm most likely explaining his option...I'm not not going to be a dick and insist on OHC to say the magic words, "I want the play instead of the penalty". 

 

Coach: why are you sending my runner back ?

Me: you can have the result of the play if you want, but if you choose that then BR is out.  

 

The problem with going this route is that it looks like you got talked into what the OHC wants. You will probably need to explain the CI enforcement choice rule to the DHC...but the know-nothing spectators are going to ride you the rest of the game...

[grayhawk]

I agree Ricka.  I'm not going to make him map out exactly what the options entail.  Something like "don't I have an option on this play?" is plenty good enough for me to them tell him what the two possible outcomes will be.

 

At the clinic I attended last weekend, one of the instructors suggested looking into the dugout for a few seconds to see if they are going to ask you about their option.  You're not coming out and asking them, but you also aren't just enforcing the penalty and going about your business.  If they're smart, they'll pick up on it and ask.

[JonnyCat]

I won't approach the manager and suggest anything. I will enforce the CI. It is incumbent on the managers at all levels to know the rules, just as we are required to.

Like Ricka56 says, I'm not waiting for any magic words. If he asks, I will be happy to explain the options.

[Jimurray]

I won't approach the manager and suggest anything. I will enforce the CI. It is incumbent on the managers at all levels to know the rules, just as we are required to.

Like Ricka56 says, I'm not waiting for any magic words. If he asks, I will be happy to explain the options.

Pretty sure your going to be talking to the OM just after you say: "Time, that's interference, you (BR) 1B, you (R2) 3B, you (R1) 2B."

[Mr Umpire]

Level of ball dictates how it is handled after the play is over.  There is a HUGE difference between being a paid coach and being a volunteer coach.  I am enforcing CI and explaining the options to the OC in anything below HS Varsity level (not age).

[scrounge]

I don't agree with not asking or giving them the option, regardless of level of play. Now, HOW I go about it, absolutely would be different. For JV and below, I'm laying out the options quickly, a la "Coach, do you want bases loaded 1 out or run scores and 2 out?". For low level or rec, I'm going to give even more details to head off the ignorance, like "Coach, your choice - result of the play or enforce the penalty. Either run scores, 2 outs or we put the batter on and it's bases loaded 1 out". For varsity, a simple "Coach, you want the play or the penalty?" but I'm still not going to choose for him. It takes all of 5 seconds - why do something and have to reverse it, possibly creating a tense situation where it absolutely does not need to be created? At an absolute minimum, I'd begin enforcing the CI and at least ask "unless you want the play" while doing so or right after it.

[Rich Ives]

LL teaches to tell them the options.

[JonnyCat]

 

I won't approach the manager and suggest anything. I will enforce the CI. It is incumbent on the managers at all levels to know the rules, just as we are required to.

Like Ricka56 says, I'm not waiting for any magic words. If he asks, I will be happy to explain the options.

Pretty sure your going to be talking to the OM just after you say: "Time, that's interference, you (BR) 1B, you (R2) 3B, you (R1) 2B."

 

Normally, yes the manager is coming out and it is a quick conversation. But a couple of times managers have said nothing. I'm not opposed to umpires asking, but I just have never have. I can see the merits in asking, though. Could help speed things up.

[JaxRolo]

Higher levels I will not give option. Lower levels I will give option if I like the coach.

[24sdad]

We have a DDB CI.  Shouldn't we be killing this play as soon as B/R is out? 

 

Same sitch except B/R hits a ground ball to F3.  We let the DDB CI play out until F3 steps on first base to record the out on B/R.  As soon as B/R is out, we kill it and deal with the CI as mentioned by other posts above.

 

With that in mind, in the OP as soon as we determine we have an IFF the B/R is out.  Shouldn't we be killing the play at that point?

[alex7]

We have a DDB CI.  Shouldn't we be killing this play as soon as B/R is out? 

 

Same sitch except B/R hits a ground ball to F3.  We let the DDB CI play out until F3 steps on first base to record the out on B/R.  As soon as B/R is out, we kill it and deal with the CI as mentioned by other posts above.

 

With that in mind, in the OP as soon as we determine we have an IFF the B/R is out.  Shouldn't we be killing the play at that point?

 

Even with the groundball situation, I would let the entire play - errors, baserunners still running - to play out before killing it to enforce the CI or give the coach the option.

 

Because the coach has the option to decline the penalty, we need to allow the entire continuation of the play to proceed - in the OP, that's the ball dropping and the other runners advancing - before we kill it.

[Kevin_K]

So many of the coaches in the games I officiate, including HS varsity and above, would not really have a clue about the option. Those that have some idea do not know exactly what their options are.

 

Suppose for a moment that you do not engage the OC about his options. After the game, some one informs him about the rule or maybe he even cracks a rule book.

 

If you are any good as an umpire, you will likely run into each other again. What happens the next time you meet on the field?

 

“Hey blue!â€

 

“Yeah?â€

 

“Remember that play when you called CI and those runs came off the board?â€

 

“Sureâ€

 

“Why didn’t you give me the option of how the play turned out?â€

 

What’s your answer?

 

I say give the options.

[Rich Ives]

We have a DDB CI.  Shouldn't we be killing this play as soon as B/R is out? 

 

Same sitch except B/R hits a ground ball to F3.  We let the DDB CI play out until F3 steps on first base to record the out on B/R.  As soon as B/R is out, we kill it and deal with the CI as mentioned by other posts above.

 

With that in mind, in the OP as soon as we determine we have an IFF the B/R is out.  Shouldn't we be killing the play at that point?

 

 

NO. Don't ever kill it. You need to let it play out because the OM has the choice of taking the play or the CI penalty.

[ricka56]

So many of the coaches in the games I officiate, including HS varsity and above, would not really have a clue about the option. Those that have some idea do not know exactly what their options are.

HS varsity coach worth their salt, know enough to ask WTF. If they don't, that's on them.

 

“Hey blue!†“Remember that play when you called CI and those runs came off the board?â€

“Sureâ€

“Why didn’t you give me the option of how the play turned out?â€

What’s your answer?

I say, "Why didn't you ask?"

I don't say, "You watched me send two of your runners back, take a run off the board and you sat in the DO with your thumb up your a$$ and didn't even ask for an explanation...that's on you, turkey."

[JaxRolo]

So many of the coaches in the games I officiate, including HS varsity and above, would not really have a clue about the option. Those that have some idea do not know exactly what their options are. Suppose for a moment that you do not engage the OC about his options. After the game, some one informs him about the rule or maybe he even cracks a rule book. If you are any good as an umpire, you will likely run into each other again. What happens the next time you meet on the field? “Hey blue!†“Yeah?†“Remember that play when you called CI and those runs came off the board?†“Sure†“Why didn’t you give me the option of how the play turned out?†What’s your answer? I say give the options.

My answer is: Why didn't you ask? Here is the Rule: e. the catcher or any other defensive player obstructs him. The coach or captain of the team at bat, after being informed by the umpire-in-chief of the obstruction, shall indicate whether or not he elects to decline the obstruction penalty and accept the resulting play. Such election shall be made before the next pitch (legal or illegal), before the award of an intentional base on balls, or before the infielders leave the diamond. Obstruction of the batter is ignored if the batter-runner reaches first and all other runners advance at least one base. 1. Any runner attempting to advance (i.e., steal or squeeze) on a catcher's obstruction of the batter shall be awarded the base he is attempting. If a runner is not attempting to advance on the catcher's obstruction, he shall not be entitled to the next base, if not forced to advance because of the batter being awarded first base. If obstruction is enforced, all other runners on the play will return to base occupied at time of the pitch. The batter is awarded first base, if he did not reach base. 2. If obstruction is not enforced, all other runners advance at their own risk.

[grayhawk]

We have a DDB CI. Shouldn't we be killing this play as soon as B/R is out? Same sitch except B/R hits a ground ball to F3. We let the DDB CI play out until F3 steps on first base to record the out on B/R. As soon as B/R is out, we kill it and deal with the CI as mentioned by other posts above. With that in mind, in the OP as soon as we determine we have an IFF the B/R is out. Shouldn't we be killing the play at that point?

You describe how we handle balks in OBR, but we are required to enforce the balk when the conditions are not met to ignore it. When the conditions are not met to ignore the CI, we wait until play has relaxed so the OC can exercise his right to take the result of the play. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pete Peterson Sr]

So many of the coaches in the games I officiate, including HS varsity and above, would not really have a clue about the option. Those that have some idea do not know exactly what their options are.

 

Suppose for a moment that you do not engage the OC about his options. After the game, some one informs him about the rule or maybe he even cracks a rule book.

 

If you are any good as an umpire, you will likely run into each other again. What happens the next time you meet on the field?

 

“Hey blue!â€

 

“Yeah?â€

 

“Remember that play when you called CI and those runs came off the board?â€

 

“Sureâ€

 

“Why didn’t you give me the option of how the play turned out?â€

 

What’s your answer?

 

I say give the options.

My answer ? "Coach, it's your responsibility to know the rules, not mine to explain each one to you".