Jump to content
jkumpire

MLB to Change Collision rules?

Recommended Posts

 

Quickly…Is Mauer's concussions due to collisions?

 

On the news it was attributed to fouls, Especially the game he took two good ones in the same game and was pulled. But he has also been involved with a couple of good hits at the plate. 

 

But why do we only talk about fouls to catchers. Who the heck else is right there with them. Yep and it is going to become a major problem with both catchers and umpires getting to many hits to the head from day one in the minors and continuing into the show. Shorter careers and the need to take care of them after their career is over. It will create more job openings at both positions if that is where someone would want to go with this subject.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm surprised we don't have a collision rule already. But an sure we'll have in MLB soon.

 

Rose pretty much ended Fosse's career, Posey's collision was awful, Minnesota is now moving Mauer permanently to first due to concussions. Not to mention the fouls off of every part of their body. Catching is the toughest position in the game. 

 

Look at all the lawsuits the NFL is in from former players for concussions stating that the league either failed to protect them adequately or let them know of the long term consequences of concussions. Also look at all the rules they have put in place to protect their most vulnerable players, at the MLB level there aren't such rules.  

 

The owners and the league want to protect their investments and limit their liability. Players like Posey, Wieters, Mauer, McCann ... put butts in seats, and money in their pockets. When they implement new collision rules it won't be to protect the players it will be to protect their wallets. 

Chad Krueter almost died from a home plate collision. He blocked the plate and walked away, but the next day while taking a shower at home he collapsed. It turns out he had internal bleeding from the collision. Get rid of that collision. There is no need for it and it is in no way wussifying the game. I don't think it is macho to hurt another player. I won't umpire MSBL just because a fifty year old man thinks it is important to break up a double play by wiping out the middle infielder. What the hell does it matter that the player may become so injured that he is no longer able to provide for his family? There is no need at all for a home plate collision. NONE!

 

From the MSBL website:

 

The rules committee is concerned about possible unnecessary and violent collisions that may occur with the catcher at home plate, and with infielders at all bases. The intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid such collisions whenever possible.

  1. a.

    When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:

    1. (1)

      Whether the collision by the runner was avoidable (could the runner have reached the base without colliding) or unavoidable (the runner’s path to the base was blocked) or

    2. (2)

      Whether the runner actually was attempting to reach the base (plate) or attempting to dislodge the ball from the fielder. 

      PENALTY—If the runner, a) could have avoided the collision and reached the base, or b) attempted to dislodge the ball, the runner shall be declared out even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

    3. (3)

      If the fielder blocks the path of the base runner to the base (plate), the runner may make contact or slide into, a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base or plate.

    4. (4)

      If the collision by the runner was flagrant, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from the contest. The ball shall be declared dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I may be the only one, but this is the wussification of baseball of baseball happening right before our eyes. IR is absolutely changing the face of baseball and I submit that by the time they are finished, baseball will look like NFHS before it's done and worse. IR is truly a pandora's box. There's an old addage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and if it's fixed, DON'T BREAK IT!

 

LEAVE BASEBALL ALONE!

Wussification.... SMFH. Buster Posey is as good an example of why there should be a rule as any other. The kid lost a season off of his career, but I guess that's unimportant, huh ? Get of the macho trip, and recognize that serious injuries aren't in the best interest of any sport.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think others have spoken my thoughts. Concussions are serious issues. Need to lower head trauma and injuries. 

I am happy they are looking at it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems like many umpires here would like to see the big galoot in front of us get a bit more protection. That makes sense, I know I have a soft spot in my heart for most of them...maybe I'm just a wuss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm surprised we don't have a collision rule already. But an sure we'll have in MLB soon.

 

Rose pretty much ended Fosse's career, Posey's collision was awful, Minnesota is now moving Mauer permanently to first due to concussions. Not to mention the fouls off of every part of their body. Catching is the toughest position in the game. 

 

Look at all the lawsuits the NFL is in from former players for concussions stating that the league either failed to protect them adequately or let them know of the long term consequences of concussions. Also look at all the rules they have put in place to protect their most vulnerable players, at the MLB level there aren't such rules.  

 

The owners and the league want to protect their investments and limit their liability. Players like Posey, Wieters, Mauer, McCann ... put butts in seats, and money in their pockets. When they implement new collision rules it won't be to protect the players it will be to protect their wallets. 

Chad Krueter almost died from a home plate collision. He blocked the plate and walked away, but the next day while taking a shower at home he collapsed. It turns out he had internal bleeding from the collision. Get rid of that collision. There is no need for it and it is in no way wussifying the game. I don't think it is macho to hurt another player. I won't umpire MSBL just because a fifty year old man thinks it is important to break up a double play by wiping out the middle infielder. What the hell does it matter that the player may become so injured that he is no longer able to provide for his family? There is no need at all for a home plate collision. NONE!

 

From the MSBL website:

 

The rules committee is concerned about possible unnecessary and violent collisions that may occur with the catcher at home plate, and with infielders at all bases. The intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid such collisions whenever possible.

  1. a.

    When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:

    1. (1)

      Whether the collision by the runner was avoidable (could the runner have reached the base without colliding) or unavoidable (the runner’s path to the base was blocked) or

    2. (2)

      Whether the runner actually was attempting to reach the base (plate) or attempting to dislodge the ball from the fielder. 

      PENALTY—If the runner, a) could have avoided the collision and reached the base, or b) attempted to dislodge the ball, the runner shall be declared out even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all other base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.

    3. (3)

      If the fielder blocks the path of the base runner to the base (plate), the runner may make contact or slide into, a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base or plate.

    4. (4)

      If the collision by the runner was flagrant, the runner shall be declared out and also ejected from the contest. The ball shall be declared dead.

 

So MLB is going to the NCAA rule,,, not a bad choice IMO

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rule is lousy.

 

I guess I'm missing where this is so rampant and commonplace that waves and waves of players are suffering season and career ending injuries thus implementing a rule like this becomes necessary.

 

It's a "risk/reward" scenario within the game we all love.  The baserunner is risking being put out AND getting injured.  The catcher is making the decision to risk injury by blocking the plate.  Both stand to gain (or win) and both stand to get punished (or lose).  What's the big deal?

 

This is just another opportunity for the best in the business to screw up the game BIG TIME and be cast in yet another negative light.  There aren't many calls that they and we can make that can directly and immediately alter the result of a game.  We are, after all, talking about the most important stat in baseball: runs.

 

Can you imagine what is going to happen when the HT's baserunner is running to the plate in the bottom of the 9th to score the tying or winning run, but makes contact with the catcher before doing so?  That scenario was just involving a regular season game;  how about the same thing happening in a wildcard game, division series or championship series game?  Or *gasp* a WORLD SERIES game?  It is going to happen and it will be a complete and utter disaster.  Would anyone feel good about winning a game that way?  Forget about losing.

 

Players are going to get hurt.  Collisions just don't happen often enough for me to think a rule like this is good for the game.  

 

My generation really gets screwed with all these changes.  You older guys got to experience (for the most part) a much different and in my opinion, a much better world.  I'm just limiting it to sports since this isn't a political forum (but I am willing to engage in any of those types of conversations through PM or otherwise :wave:).  My generation gets to watch 15-yard personal fouls called for touching a QB's head and now grown men being forced to give themselves up on the base path so they don't get suspended or fined.  Good grief.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

The collision at the plate is so pointless it's ridiculous that it even exists.

R3/F2 collisions were born out of F2s taking advantage of the obstruction loophole (in the act of fielding the ball ) and blocking HP. It has unfortunately morphed into truck F2 whenever you can and that should go away. But even if there is a rule against collisions, there are going to be "trainwrecks" that shouldn't be penalized. Maybe the post-game (cooler heads) review/fines/suspensions is the way to go.

 

I was a catcher and was hit at the plate.

This explains a lot. :wave:

 

I'm interested what fines or suspensions you personally would advocate for.  I don't see how you could allow these collisions to happen without penalty during the game, but then send a player a letter through Fed Ex telling them to pony up some money.

 

That being said, I am interested in anything that would prevent umpires from making a decision that pertains to whether or not a run should score or disqualifying a player for a collision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone who has any contact with any MLB umpires or even MiLB umpires, has anyone had any communication with them about this new rule?  I don't want any umpires singled out, so if you don't want to make a remark in a thread I can understand that.  I am just really interested in their thoughts.  PM me if you don't want to post in this thread.  Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone who has any contact with any MLB umpires or even MiLB umpires, has anyone had any communication with them about this new rule?  I don't want any umpires singled out, so if you don't want to make a remark in a thread I can understand that.  I am just really interested in their thoughts.  PM me if you don't want to post in this thread.  Thanks.

Maybe Jim Knight will come on here and give opinions .........

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 Lou Gehrig would have lived a much longer life if he had worn a helmet. 

You think Lou Gehrig wearing a helmet caused his ALS??? :smachhead:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

For anyone who has any contact with any MLB umpires or even MiLB umpires, has anyone had any communication with them about this new rule?  I don't want any umpires singled out, so if you don't want to make a remark in a thread I can understand that.  I am just really interested in their thoughts.  PM me if you don't want to post in this thread.  Thanks.

Maybe Jim Knight will come on here and give opinions .........

 

Although it is very very unfortunate for all of us, IMHO it is best if JK doe not come on here and give opinions or join discussions.

 

Along the lines of Silence cannot be misquoted and other similar things. Just the way it is, and it is a very good thing. Once again, although unfortunate for us, it is a good unfortunate circumstance if ever there is/was such a circumstance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

  • a.

    When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge:

    • (1)

      Whether the collision by the runner was avoidable (could the runner have reached the base without colliding) or unavoidable (the runner’s path to the base was blocked) or

       

    •  

 

Despite the precedent, I think reducing the catcher's protection when the plate is blocked is wrong-headed.  The catcher, when in possession of the ball,  is supposed to block access to the base.  How much access does he have to grant?   Where's the line between limiting access and blocking the plate so much that he can be legally trucked?

 

 

The whole thing seems based on the idea that the runner should have some minimal probability to succeed until he's actually put out.  Why?  If the catcher has the ball and the plate blocked and the runner can't stop, he could just be out almost all the time.  Why is this a problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quickly…Is Mauer's concussions due to collisions?

 

On the news it was attributed to fouls, Especially the game he took two good ones in the same game and was pulled. But he has also been involved with a couple of good hits at the plate.

Mauer's concussions are not collision based. They are foul balls to the mask.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For anyone who has any contact with any MLB umpires or even MiLB umpires, has anyone had any communication with them about this new rule?  I don't want any umpires singled out, so if you don't want to make a remark in a thread I can understand that.  I am just really interested in their thoughts.  PM me if you don't want to post in this thread.  Thanks.

 

 I have put in a call. Hope to be able to give you an opinion soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that I was shocked hasn't been mentioned is how kids grow up playing the game today. What I mean by that is when kids start in t-ball or whatever level they start at they can't run over the catcher then when they move into coach pitch they can't run over the catcher, then when they get into kid pitch they can't run over the catcher, then in high school they can't run over the catcher, and again when they get into college they can't run over the catcher. See a trend there? Why would it be such a hard adjustment to make for the pros not to be allowed to run over the catcher? They spend their whole lives learning the game where they can't collide with the catcher and very few people find it absurd that collision isn't allowed at those levels. Why is it any different when they get to the pros? At that point their livelihood is on the line and they don't have much of a backup plan to fall back on. Where as if they get hurt from a collision as a kid they still have their whole lives ahead of them to figure out what it is they want to do with their life. I don't think anybody goes into professional baseball thinking that they don't have a shot at the show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference is "Nobody pays to watch a low level game".  And, even in college, it is not about the money as much as it is at the MLB level.  They do what dictates the money flow.  If collisions hurt the money aspect, then stop them.  If it boosts money, let them go.  I think it hurts the bottom line when they are paying a catcher while he is not performing.  Plus, putting another one in who may do as well puts a strain on front office as they negotiate contracts for the following seasons.

 

Again, apples and oranges.  MLB is not the same as college and below.  In college and below, they are deemed as still developing and many won't even attempt for the pros.  In MLB, they have been considered to "have made it to the show" and it's time to put on a show.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious to see how this affects the "runs scored" stat.  Granted, collisions don't happen that often (and catchers suffering long-term injuries is even less likely), but I have to think if a penalty can include an ejection, suspension and/or fine, a 3rd base coach might not be as willing to take a risk waving the runner home or maybe the runner might be worried about the consequences to the point that it affects his "eagerness" to take a risk.  Might not be much of a difference at all, but anything that has the potential to cause less scoring is a net negative.

 

The only people who like 1-0 ballgames are umpires who get to head to the bar a little earlier that night.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm curious to see how this affects the "runs scored" stat.  Granted, collisions don't happen that often (and catchers suffering long-term injuries is even less likely), but I have to think if a penalty can include an ejection, suspension and/or fine, a 3rd base coach might not be as willing to take a risk waving the runner home or maybe the runner might be worried about the consequences to the point that it affects his "eagerness" to take a risk.  Might not be much of a difference at all, but anything that has the potential to cause less scoring is a net negative.

 

The only people who like 1-0 ballgames are umpires who get to head to the bar a little earlier that night.

I would think that just like in other sports there are plenty of purist's or traditionalist's out there just like for any subject or sport we could think of, that enjoy a defensive battle by both teams just so long as it is not every game.

 

So, just for the new year, I would hope in the future, each game you (and no I am not trying to be personal, so to speek as it was practically impossible to not use the word you for this) are personally associated with is a 12-10 or 20-19 exciting back and forth game with pitching era's of 10+ and batting averages of 500+ and games of 4-6 hours with all the fans screaming and yelling for their teams for each 9 inning ball game. Since that is what makes everyone happy, then let's have more of it every game. Hurray, hurray. More is better, but something tells me that is not true all the time or for "all" the people just the "only" people.

 

Good luck at the school this year and really, I hope you get a mix of games. Some short for the purist's and some long for the "only's and some in between for those who like the porridge "just right". Let us know how it goes with what you learn so we can be more up to date with the latest thinking for everything that is taught. However, once you get a job, unfortunately, it would probably be wise to stay off here. Once again, enjoy and good luck.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I'm curious to see how this affects the "runs scored" stat.  Granted, collisions don't happen that often (and catchers suffering long-term injuries is even less likely), but I have to think if a penalty can include an ejection, suspension and/or fine, a 3rd base coach might not be as willing to take a risk waving the runner home or maybe the runner might be worried about the consequences to the point that it affects his "eagerness" to take a risk.  Might not be much of a difference at all, but anything that has the potential to cause less scoring is a net negative.

 

The only people who like 1-0 ballgames are umpires who get to head to the bar a little earlier that night.

I would think that just like in other sports there are plenty of purist's or traditionalist's out there just like for any subject or sport we could think of, that enjoy a defensive battle by both teams just so long as it is not every game.

 

So, just for the new year, I would hope in the future, each game you (and no I am not trying to be personal, so to speek as it was practically impossible to not use the word you for this) are personally associated with is a 12-10 or 20-19 exciting back and forth game with pitching era's of 10+ and batting averages of 500+ and games of 4-6 hours with all the fans screaming and yelling for their teams for each 9 inning ball game. Since that is what makes everyone happy, then let's have more of it every game. Hurray, hurray. More is better, but something tells me that is not true all the time or for "all" the people just the "only" people.

 

Good luck at the school this year and really, I hope you get a mix of games. Some short for the purist's and some long for the "only's and some in between for those who like the porridge "just right". Let us know how it goes with what you learn so we can be more up to date with the latest thinking for everything that is taught. However, once you get a job, unfortunately, it would probably be wise to stay off here. Once again, enjoy and good luck.

 

That ship sailed for umpire school.  Being so young and dealing with nagging back and feet injuries, realistically it's not something I see myself being able to do for very long, let alone 20-30 years.  Glad to learn it now rather than later on.

 

As far as your "rant" is concerned, anything (let alone a rule) that has the potential to decrease SCORING from baseball is a negative.  I don't really understand what my comment has to do with a boatload of runs being scored.  Baseball already has a viewership problem because of the lack of action.  We really want to hurt the game to prevent the RARE serious injury?  I'm not a fan at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again I think people are looking at this the wrong way. If you think it's hurting the game than you really aren't watching the game for the game you're watching it for the action. If that's the case feel free to watch baseball but I think football would be more you're speed. Also this is the game progressing to make it safer so that players have longer longer careers and teams don't have money tied up on a player that can't play due to injury. There are of course other reasons but those are two big ones that have been a major focus. Secondly anyone who watches baseball and is bored watching a 1-0 game probably isn't a baseball fan. Not just umpires like 1-0 games every true baseball fan likes a good defensive battle. Lastly want to point out that MLB released a study showing the net runs per team a season from collisions at the plate compared to sliding. The total of runs per team gained a YEAR from collisions at the plate was marginally less than 1. So for less than 30 runs a year throughout all of Major League Baseball is it really worth having a collision at the plate? Don't try and pretend that baseball is a sport about being the toughest strongest most manly men. It's a sport about strategy, execution, and mental strength more than it is any kind of physical battle. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only people who like 1-0 ballgames are umpires who get to head to the bar a little earlier that night.

 

 

Disagree: I've always loved pitchers' duels, long before I started umpiring. Baseball is a defensive game: the only game where the defense controls the ball.

 

Shootouts belong in arena football.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Platejob29:  I'm not talking about runs scored directly from collisions.  I'm saying now there will [likely] be consequences like ejections, suspensions and fines for colliding with a catcher at home plate.  3rd base coaches and runners may be more apprehensive about running home on a close play knowing the potential for the player to be ejected for contact with the catcher (judgement call by an umpire).  That's undeniable.

 

As far as your comment regarding strategy, execution and mental strength, I'd argue those are all in play when dealing with home plate collisions.  It's a risk for both players and teams involved.  

 

We disagree.  Plain and simple.  More than anything I think this is yet another example of the wussification of this country.  That's what is most disappointing to me.

 

Maven:  you're confusing me with someone who only wants to see shootouts.  I (like the vast majority of people) simply don't have the patience or attention span necessary to dedicate three to four hours watching games that feature a run or two.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe my perception is skewed, but it seems that collisions are more likely to occur when the runner is otherwise hosed, where the the catcher has the ball and is waiting for the runner, rather than situations where the ball and runner are arriving at the same time, or when the catchers blocking the plate and is hit before the ball gets there. But regardless of the mix, I would have thought that first group would rarely score a run, the last group usually would score, and the middle would be 50/50 or so. Take out the collisions, you probably get similar results overall, if not in individual cases. Some players might be less likely to go with outlawed collisions, because they're bigger and more likely to knock the ball loose. Others might be more likely to go thinking they can slip by a catcher who can't block the plate anymore. I think overall there won't be a big difference in playing, but take away a stupendous injury risk.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...