Rules 6.10 and 6.07 - BD and improper batter

[oswalmar]

In a lineup card with BD, once the battery turns around, the pitcher -placed in tenth place in the lineup- takes the turn before for the first batter and reached first base hitting to left. The first batter occupied the batter box after the pitcher and got walk. The BD, which is as second batter, stops in batter box, bunt the ball and reaches safe to first base. Bases loaded. My question is: should I, as umpire, to prevent that the BD consume the turn, as he was replaced by the pitcher and therefore is now officially out of the game? or I should await the defensive team makes the claim to bring the situation in order?

[grayhawk]

What's a BD?

[mstaylor]

What's a BD?

I was wondering the same thing.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[afaber12]

In a lineup card with BD, once the battery turns around, the pitcher -placed in tenth place in the lineup- takes the turn before for the first batter and reached first base hitting to left. The first batter occupied the batter box after the pitcher and got walk. The BD, which is as second batter, stops in batter box, bunt the ball and reaches safe to first base. Bases loaded. My question is: should I, as umpire, to prevent that the BD consume the turn, as he was replaced by the pitcher and therefore is now officially out of the game? or I should await the defensive team makes the claim to bring the situation in order?

I'm guessing "BD" refers to "Batter Designated", and is a Google Translate version of "Designated Hitter". Under OBR, the DH would be out of the game when the pitcher goes to another fielding position, and would bat in the DH's place in the lineup, unless there were other fielding substitutions made in which case like with a double-switch the manager has to specify where the sub(s) and the former pitcher will bat. The former DH is now out of the game and can no longer participate. If he comes up to bat it's not a batting out of order situation, you stop him from participating. I know of rule sets, particularly where DHs are involved where changes involving the DH and pitcher are handled differently, so see your doctor if pain persists.

[oswalmar]

What's a BD?

Excuse me BD is DH. Sorry

[oswalmar]

Excuse me everybody, BD is DH. Sorry

[mstaylor]

Then I believe the answer is above.<br /><br />Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2<br /><br />

[mrumpiresir]

 

In a lineup card with BD, once the battery turns around, the pitcher -placed in tenth place in the lineup- takes the turn before for the first batter and reached first base hitting to left. The first batter occupied the batter box after the pitcher and got walk. The BD, which is as second batter, stops in batter box, bunt the ball and reaches safe to first base. Bases loaded. My question is: should I, as umpire, to prevent that the BD consume the turn, as he was replaced by the pitcher and therefore is now officially out of the game? or I should await the defensive team makes the claim to bring the situation in order?

I'm guessing "BD" refers to "Batter Designated", and is a Google Translate version of "Designated Hitter". Under OBR, the DH would be out of the game when the pitcher goes to another fielding position, and would bat in the DH's place in the lineup, unless there were other fielding substitutions made in which case like with a double-switch the manager has to specify where the sub(s) and the former pitcher will bat. The former DH is now out of the game and can no longer participate. If he comes up to bat it's not a batting out of order situation, you stop him from participating. I know of rule sets, particularly where DHs are involved where changes involving the DH and pitcher are handled differently, so see your doctor if pain persists.

 

There is a situation where the DH could go in on defense replacing F5 for example, and the pitcher would now bat in the spot F5 had previously occupied. The DH would still bat in his original position and now you have both the original F1 and the DH playing defense.  The role of the DH is now terminated but the DH is not out of the game.  See 6.10(b)(5).

[oswalmar]

Friends, thank you for your opinion. First I inform you that, in Venezuela we work under the OBR without any modification regarding to the DH. Based on this principle, I think this is one of many situations that are not entirely clear in the OBR and must be resolved by us, the umpires, using analogies. I would want to discuss this extensively and come ultimately to a decision (or opinion) approved.

Now, if the pitcher takes a turn at bat of the 1st in the lineup, can be understood as that, apart from being a unannounced replacement of the DH also is a Batting Out ​​of Turn (Rule 6.07). As I interpret the Rule 6.10 (b) (10), so must be. I am persuaded the pitcher is not allowed to enter to bat for any player other than the DH. If I am wrong and he can do it, I like to know where I find that comment, because in the OBR is not explicitly. If so, things would change, not for the DH, but yes to the pitcher and the rest of the players.

[noumpere]

Not to mention that the OP had the pitcher now hitting 10th so it could be some special league rule where they went from 9 hitters to 10, so there's not enough information to give a complete answer.

 

You could also have an illegal sub if the DH gets in the box, and then whoever was supposed to be batting is out of the game and needs to be  replaced with a legal sub.

[oswalmar]

Not to mention that the OP had the pitcher now hitting 10th so it could be some special league rule where they went from 9 hitters to 10, so there's not enough information to give a complete answer.

 

You could also have an illegal sub if the DH gets in the box, and then whoever was supposed to be batting is out of the game and needs to be  replaced with a legal sub.

I regret not having fully explained my question. In the previous post I reported that there is no special regulation that allows 10 players at bat. Can only bat 9. My question still focused where this. The 6.10 Rule (OBR) says, in one of its sections, that when the pitcher enters by any player other than the DH, this action ends with the DH for the rest of the game. And another section says that the pitcher can only enter to bat for the DH. I think the first section is concerned when the pitcher goes to another defensive position, but does say nothing when this suititución is made ​​in the moment that team is hitting. If a manager can do this and both, pitcher and DH can staying in the same time on base,  is not mocking the established in the Rules?

[ricka56]

I don't think we've completely answered the OP's question. From what I've pieced together, F1 was listed below the 9th batter in the line-up (I've seen it done this way). After the B9's turn at bat, F1 (?B10?) came to bat and reached base on a single, B1 reaches base on a BB and DH (?B2?) bunts his way on base. Now the umpire realizes that he has F1 on 3B and the DH on 1B. His question is what does he do now? Does he stay quiet and let the defense bring up the problem or does he act without "an appeal" and if he does act, what does he do.

 

What a mess. If this was a high school NFHS game, I think NFHS rules cover this sitch, somewhat (umpire doesn't wait for defense, DH is out, illegal sub takes precedence over the batting out of order). I think B3 should be the next batter, but I can't find a Fed reference (I may start a HS thread on this).

 

That's HS rules, but other than 3.03 (which makes this situation illegal) I can't find anything in OBR that covers/resolves this situation either.  The OP (and I) are looking for OBR rules/interps to cover this.

[noumpere]

 

Not to mention that the OP had the pitcher now hitting 10th so it could be some special league rule where they went from 9 hitters to 10, so there's not enough information to give a complete answer.

 

You could also have an illegal sub if the DH gets in the box, and then whoever was supposed to be batting is out of the game and needs to be  replaced with a legal sub.

I regret not having fully explained my question. In the previous post I reported that there is no special regulation that allows 10 players at bat. Can only bat 9. My question still focused where this. The 6.10 Rule (OBR) says, in one of its sections, that when the pitcher enters by any player other than the DH, this action ends with the DH for the rest of the game. And another section says that the pitcher can only enter to bat for the DH. I think the first section is concerned when the pitcher goes to another defensive position, but does say nothing when this suititución is made ​​in the moment that team is hitting. If a manager can do this and both, pitcher and DH can staying in the same time on base,  is not mocking the established in the Rules?

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

[oswalmar]

Very hard situation. Reading the comments, it seems quite reasonable to let the actions continue and wait for this team go to the defense. In this moment would be clarified waters. But the problem could persist if they make the appeal later that both DH and pitcher are on the bases and have made a pitch to the B3...

[ricka56]

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2). Coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  Though the rules only say this is illegal and don't prescribe a remedy, calling DH out seems the logical thing to do, but who is the next proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, this is an illegal sub. Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

[oswalmar]

 

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2) coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  So who is the proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

 

Notice: DH is B2, not B3...

[noumpere]

 

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2) coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  Though the rules only say this is illegal and don't prescribe a remedy, calling DH out seems the logical thing to do, but who is the proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, this is an illegal sub. Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

 

I think that's generally how I'd handle it.

 

The first pitch to the "DH" legitimizes B1's at bat.  So, B2 (who was the DH and is now the former F1) is due up.  He's on base though, so he is skipped.  That makes B3 the proper batter.  When DH shows up, he's an illegal sub for B3.  The hit stands (actions by an illegal sub are still valid under OBR), but B3 is now out of the game, the DH is out of the game.  Put a legal sub for B3 on first and B4 bats. 

 

The batting order is now B1, B2 =(old F1), S3, B4, B5 ...

[ricka56]

 

 

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2) coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  Though the rules only say this is illegal and don't prescribe a remedy, calling DH out seems the logical thing to do, but who is the proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, this is an illegal sub. Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

 

I think that's generally how I'd handle it.

 

The first pitch to the "DH" legitimizes B1's at bat.  So, B2 (who was the DH and is now the former F1) is due up.  He's on base though, so he is skipped.  That makes B3 the proper batter.  When DH shows up, he's an illegal sub for B3.  The hit stands (actions by an illegal sub are still valid under OBR), but B3 is now out of the game, the DH is out of the game.  Put a legal sub for B3 on first and B4 bats. 

 

The batting order is now B1, B2 =(old F1), S3, B4, B5 ...

 

I know I would have no OBR rule reference to justify calling DH out (Fed does get an out here), but how do you justify "actions by an illegal sub are still valid under OBR" ? And replacing him on base with a legal sub?

 

Edit/Added: If an illegal sub (discovered right after he) hits a grand-slam HR (OBR), does that play stands?

[noumpere]

1) 3.03 CMT:

Any play that occurs while a player appears in a game after having been substituted for shall

count. If, in an umpire’s judgment, the player re-entered the game knowing that he had been removed,

the umpire may eject the manager.

 

2) 3.03 (but you have to read the whole thing carefully to understand the "substituted for" references (it means a player previously removed):

If such direction to remove the substituted-

for player occurs after play has commenced with the substituted-for player in the

game, then the substitute player shall be deemed to have been removed from the game (in

addition to the removal of the substituted-for player) and shall not enter the game.

 

[oswalmar]

 

 

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2) coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  Though the rules only say this is illegal and don't prescribe a remedy, calling DH out seems the logical thing to do, but who is the proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, this is an illegal sub. Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

 

I think that's generally how I'd handle it.

 

The first pitch to the "DH" legitimizes B1's at bat.  So, B2 (who was the DH and is now the former F1) is due up.  He's on base though, so he is skipped.  That makes B3 the proper batter.  When DH shows up, he's an illegal sub for B3.  The hit stands (actions by an illegal sub are still valid under OBR), but B3 is now out of the game, the DH is out of the game.  Put a legal sub for B3 on first and B4 bats. 

 

The batting order is now B1, B2 =(old F1), S3, B4, B5 ...

 

I like this solution. Especially since it is supported by Rule 3.03 which, I must confess, I had not thoroughly reviewed. Now if the umpire is aware of what is occurring, could to stop the DH and inform to manager that he ended his acting in the game. The umpire must intervene before he is positioned in box and to call to bat the proper (B3) to prevent the out of both. Do not you think?

[oswalmar]

 

 

 

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2) coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  Though the rules only say this is illegal and don't prescribe a remedy, calling DH out seems the logical thing to do, but who is the proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, this is an illegal sub. Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

 

I think that's generally how I'd handle it.

 

The first pitch to the "DH" legitimizes B1's at bat.  So, B2 (who was the DH and is now the former F1) is due up.  He's on base though, so he is skipped.  That makes B3 the proper batter.  When DH shows up, he's an illegal sub for B3.  The hit stands (actions by an illegal sub are still valid under OBR), but B3 is now out of the game, the DH is out of the game.  Put a legal sub for B3 on first and B4 bats. 

 

The batting order is now B1, B2 =(old F1), S3, B4, B5 ...

 

I like this solution. Especially since it is supported by Rule 3.03 which, I must confess, I had not thoroughly reviewed. Now if the umpire is aware of what is occurring, could to stop the DH and inform to manager that he ended his acting in the game. The umpire must intervene before he is positioned in box and to call to bat the proper (B3) to prevent the out of both. Do not you think?

 

... and would also prevent something like what illustrates ricka56

[ricka56]

1) 3.03 CMT:

Any play that occurs while a player appears in a game after having been substituted for shall

count. If, in an umpire’s judgment, the player re-entered the game knowing that he had been removed,

the umpire may eject the manager.

 

2) 3.03 (but you have to read the whole thing carefully to understand the "substituted for" references (it means a player previously removed):

If such direction to remove the substituted-

for player occurs after play has commenced with the substituted-for player in the

game, then the substitute player shall be deemed to have been removed from the game (in

addition to the removal of the substituted-for player) and shall not enter the game.

Thanks...I don't like it, but it is what it is. Hope the OP is satisfied.

 

I think I'd get off the field with more skin on my arse if I used the Fed rule. 

[ricka56]

 

 

 

 

The pitcher can only PH for the DH.  It's in the rules (99% certain -- said without looking, which usually means trouble. lol.)

 

 

What's not covered is how to treat it if the pitcher shows up unannounced in other than the DH's spot -- is it a legal sub for the DH, and then BOOT, or is it an illegal sub for whoever was supposed to bat?

 

F1 batting was an unannounced termination of the DH(B2) coming to the plate when he did was a BOO. But that BOO was negated by the next pitch to B1 (now also a BOO). But that BOO is also negated by the next pitch to DH (an illegal sub for B2/F1).  Though the rules only say this is illegal and don't prescribe a remedy, calling DH out seems the logical thing to do, but who is the proper batter now? This is not a BOO where the proper batter is out, this is an illegal sub. Is B2 (F1 standing on 3B) the next proper batter?... What a mess. 

 

I think that's generally how I'd handle it.

 

The first pitch to the "DH" legitimizes B1's at bat.  So, B2 (who was the DH and is now the former F1) is due up.  He's on base though, so he is skipped.  That makes B3 the proper batter.  When DH shows up, he's an illegal sub for B3.  The hit stands (actions by an illegal sub are still valid under OBR), but B3 is now out of the game, the DH is out of the game.  Put a legal sub for B3 on first and B4 bats. 

 

The batting order is now B1, B2 =(old F1), S3, B4, B5 ...

 

I like this solution. Especially since it is supported by Rule 3.03 which, I must confess, I had not thoroughly reviewed. Now if the umpire is aware of what is occurring, could to stop the DH and inform to manager that he ended his acting in the game. The umpire must intervene before he is positioned in box and to call to bat the proper (B3) to prevent the out of both. Do not you think?

 

I think we concluded that there is no out in your situation. DH is removed from the game replaced with S3...no out on the play. You can fix this situation anytime before DH puts the ball in play while at-bat. S3 would inherit any ball/strike count that the illegal player (DH) had.

[noumpere]

 

I think we concluded that there is no out in your situation. DH is removed from the game replaced with S3...no out on the play. You can fix this situation anytime before DH puts the ball in play while at-bat. S3 would inherit any ball/strike count that the illegal player (DH) had.

 

 

And if you notice it before the DH gets in the box, then just let B3 bat and no illegal substitution has occurred.

[oswalmar]

That is correct, sorry (is not me, is my spanglish, LOL). DH is removed, no out. S3 for DH (B3) before any play. I think this is better... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free