Illegal pitch- fielder in foul ground LL

[etignor11]

So I'm in the field umpiring a 13-15 (Jr league) year old All-Star game. We are sanctioned under LL rules. First baseman decides he wants to be lazy and stands behind first toward the coaches box with both feet in foul territory at time of the pitch. I call illegal pitch and advance R1 from 3rd and R2 from 1st.

After double checking the rule book this morning, I'm wondering whether I'm right or not. It says "at start of game and when ball is put into play" 4:03.

I would normally have missed this but I was already upset at the lack of effort shown by the team in the field so I was also trying to get their attention. Never mind that my partner never properly puts the ball in play after stoppages, was I right to call this? I always thought it was time of pitch and only catcher can be in foul territory.

[KLAH316]

The ball can not be put into play unless all fielders are in fair territory......

[noumpere]

You should have put the fielder in a legal position.  Under OBR its not an illegal pitch / balk.

[Mike Prince]

So I'm in the field umpiring a 13-15 (Jr league) year old All-Star game. We are sanctioned under LL rules. First baseman decides he wants to be lazy and stands behind first toward the coaches box with both feet in foul territory at time of the pitch. I call illegal pitch and advance R1 from 3rd and R2 from 1st.

After double checking the rule book this morning, I'm wondering whether I'm right or not. It says "at start of game and when ball is put into play" 4:03.

I would normally have missed this but I was already upset at the lack of effort shown by the team in the field so I was also trying to get their attention. Never mind that my partner never properly puts the ball in play after stoppages, was I right to call this? I always thought it was time of pitch and only catcher can be in foul territory.

 

Bolded part is not our job, that's the responsibility of the coaches.

 

4.03 © says any fielder may position themselves anywhere in fair territory, which I interpret as they cannot be in foul territory.  Not sure I'd get an illegal pitch on this though as there's only a penalty specified for the catcher violation.  For me this has always been a "don't do that" when a fielder gets into foul ground when he's not supposed to.

[Larry in TN]

Not sure I'd get an illegal pitch on this though as there's only a penalty specified for the catcher violation.

 

 

That's the interesting part.  Looking at how it is formatted in the LL rule book, I'm not sure if the penalty applies only to paragraph (a) or if it applies to everything above it which includes the introductory sentence stating that all fielders other than the catcher shall be in fair territory?

 

4.03 - When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be in fair territory.

(a) the catcher shall be stationed in the catcher's box.  The catcher may leave that position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher's box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

PENALTY: Illegal pitch - ball called on the batter (see Rule 8.05).  (Junior/Senior/Big League penalty: Balk with runner or runners on base.)

[conbo61]

Sounds like you got it right.  I do not think it applies to (a).  It says that ALL fielders other than the catcher.  All (a) does is clarify where the catcher is to be located in a little more detail.

[Mike Prince]

Sounds like you got it right.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Fielder should have been set legally and we play on with no runners advancing.

[conbo61]

 

Sounds like you got it right.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Fielder should have been set legally and we play on with no runners advancing.

 

 

I am open to learn.  What is your rationale?

[Aging_Arbiter]

 

 

Sounds like you got it right.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Fielder should have been set legally and we play on with no runners advancing.

 

 

I am open to learn.  What is your rationale?

 

4.03 - When the ball is put in play at the start of, or during a game, all fielders other than the catcher shall be in fair territory.

(a) the catcher shall be stationed in the catcher's box.  The catcher may leave that position at any time to catch a pitch or make a play except that when the batter is being given an intentional base on balls, the catcher must stand with both feet within the lines of the catcher's box until the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

PENALTY: Illegal pitch - ball called on the batter (see Rule 8.05).  (Junior/Senior/Big League penalty: Balk with runner or runners on base.)

 

[Mike Prince]

 

 

Sounds like you got it right.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Fielder should have been set legally and we play on with no runners advancing.

 

 

I am open to learn.  What is your rationale?

 

 

My rationale is 8.05 and what is or isn't a balk,  Violation of 4.03(a) is noted as a balk both there and in 8.05(l).  There is no penalty for the fielders not being in fair ground in 4.03©; as stated previously in OBR you call time, tell the fielder to get where he belongs, and put the ball back in play.

 

Bottom line, there's no rule support for a balk here.

[conbo61]

 

 

 

Sounds like you got it right.

 

I respectfully disagree.  Fielder should have been set legally and we play on with no runners advancing.

 

 

I am open to learn.  What is your rationale?

 

 

My rationale is 8.05 and what is or isn't a balk,  Violation of 4.03(a) is noted as a balk both there and in 8.05(l).  There is no penalty for the fielders not being in fair ground in 4.03©; as stated previously in OBR you call time, tell the fielder to get where he belongs, and put the ball back in play.

 

Bottom line, there's no rule support for a balk here.

 

 

The rule quoted specifies the penalty for fielders not being in fair territory (with the exception of F2).  If this situation is not called out in the balk definition section, does that nullify the specified penalty?

 

I don't have a LL Rule book handy, so I can't confirm if the quoted passage has been edited.  Are you interpreting (a) as only applying to the catcher?

[Jimurray]

The MLBUM used to say ignore F3 playing in foul territory while holding a runner on unless someone complained and then enforce the rule equally. (Which is "don't do that" not a balk). It changed this year to: 

 

"There is no penalty specified for violation other than the first baseman shall be instructed to keep both feet in fair territory if brought to the attention of the umpire, or-if blatant or recurring violation-upon immediate direction of the umpire."

[Mike Prince]

 

The rule quoted specifies the penalty for fielders not being in fair territory (with the exception of F2).  If this situation is not called out in the balk definition section, does that nullify the specified penalty?

 

I don't have a LL Rule book handy, so I can't confirm if the quoted passage has been edited.  Are you interpreting (a) as only applying to the catcher?

 

 

Yes.  I will scan the pages from a Cal RIpken/Babe Ruth rulebook (I don't call LL so I don't have their book) which specifically shows a penalty only for (a)

 

Additionally, if it is a balk or illegal pitch it would be specifically called out in 8.05, like the catcher's violation is.

[Mike Prince]

No idea if this will be readable, but 4.03 starts on the bottom of Pg. 50 and goes to the top of Pg. 51.

 

 

And I agree with Jimurray - this is normally only called if the offensive team complains or you see repeated violations of it.  Anything else is picking boogers IMO.

[conbo61]

 

 

The rule quoted specifies the penalty for fielders not being in fair territory (with the exception of F2).  If this situation is not called out in the balk definition section, does that nullify the specified penalty?

 

I don't have a LL Rule book handy, so I can't confirm if the quoted passage has been edited.  Are you interpreting (a) as only applying to the catcher?

 

 

Yes.  I will scan the pages from a Cal RIpken/Babe Ruth rulebook (I don't call LL so I don't have their book) which specifically shows a penalty only for (a)

 

Additionally, if it is a balk or illegal pitch it would be specifically called out in 8.05, like the catcher's violation is.

 

 

Just goes to show the importance of "context".  I just looked up the 2013 MLB rules and it is clear in THAT reference that the balk applies to the catcher's position.  Based upon the way the rule is presented above, I would not make the connection that the penalty ONLY applies to (a).

 

Smarter than when I woke up this morning....

[SoCal Lurker]

Recently (as a parent) heard a coach teaching an F3 that both feet had to be on the field when he was holding on a runner or it was a balk.   Just kept walking . . . is that on the infamous list of most common baseball myths?

[semper_fi_72]

So I'm in the field umpiring a 13-15 (Jr league) year old All-Star game. We are sanctioned under LL rules. First baseman decides he wants to be lazy and stands behind first toward the coaches box with both feet in foul territory at time of the pitch. I call illegal pitch and advance R1 from 3rd and R2 from 1st.

After double checking the rule book this morning, I'm wondering whether I'm right or not. It says "at start of game and when ball is put into play" 4:03.

I would normally have missed this but I was already upset at the lack of effort shown by the team in the field so I was also trying to get their attention. Never mind that my partner never properly puts the ball in play after stoppages, was I right to call this? I always thought it was time of pitch and only catcher can be in foul territory.

Besides what was already posted, I would only add the following in reference to your labeling runners.

They are labeled by the base they are on.

R1 is always on 1st Base

R2 is always on 2nd Base

R3 is always on 3rd Base

This is regardless of any runner not being on any of the bases.

I believe the way you are labeling them is a old Fed way and always caused confusion.

 

So in your sit;

Scored R3 and advanced R1 to 2nd Base.  He now becomes R2.

[noumpere]

Recently (as a parent) heard a coach teaching an F3 that both feet had to be on the field when he was holding on a runner or it was a balk.   Just kept walking . . . is that on the infamous list of most common baseball myths?

Yes it is and it gets learned by those watching games where its called as in the OP.  And its not even true in FED.

[HeadHunterLA]

Re-position the player and play the game, no balk, no runners advance no illegal pitch.

[mw94]

 

Recently (as a parent) heard a coach teaching an F3 that both feet had to be on the field when he was holding on a runner or it was a balk.   Just kept walking . . . is that on the infamous list of most common baseball myths?

Yes it is and it gets learned by those watching games where its called as in the OP.  And its not even true in FED.

 

Sorry but it is a balk in FED , But you only need to keep one foot in fair territory.  fed 1-1-4, gotta love them BRD's

[noumpere]

 

 

Recently (as a parent) heard a coach teaching an F3 that both feet had to be on the field when he was holding on a runner or it was a balk.   Just kept walking . . . is that on the infamous list of most common baseball myths?

Yes it is and it gets learned by those watching games where its called as in the OP.  And its not even true in FED.

 

Sorry but it is a balk in FED , But you only need to keep one foot in fair territory.  fed 1-1-4, gotta love them BRD's

 

Right so "both feet had to be on the field" that I was responding to is not true.

 

And lets face it that with only two umpires your not going to get it in FED and with 3 or more then U1 is easily going to put F3 back in the right spot.

[etignor11]

Thanks for all of the replies. Remember I'm just looking for the LL answer.

If this wasn't my home league I would leave the coaching to the coaches, however none of the coaches know the rules very well as about 4/6 didn't even start learning the game until their kid started playing. I had one coach make his 2 base runners go back after executing a double steal just because I signaled tip (catcher caught ball) on strike 2....... And the other team just let let them!

Another coach didn't know that you can't run on dropped 3rd strike with 1st occupied and less than 2 outs.

Anyway, so if I'm understanding the consensus correctly:

I don't say anything until after the pitch is thrown and then I go correct the player? Pitch counts and no runners advance due to penalty? No penalty for multiple occurrences? Just seems odd at this age level?

[noumpere]

Thanks for all of the replies. Remember I'm just looking for the LL answer.

If this wasn't my home league I would leave the coaching to the coaches, however none of the coaches know the rules very well as about 4/6 didn't even start learning the game until their kid started playing. I had one coach make his 2 base runners go back after executing a double steal just because I signaled tip (catcher caught ball) on strike 2....... And the other team just let let them!

Another coach didn't know that you can't run on dropped 3rd strike with 1st occupied and less than 2 outs.

Anyway, so if I'm understanding the consensus correctly:

I don't say anything until after the pitch is thrown and then I go correct the player? Pitch counts and no runners advance due to penalty? No penalty for multiple occurrences? Just seems odd at this age level?

If you see it before the pitch, then fix it then and theres no penalty.  You should be sure the other umpires are inforcing it the same way because you don't want some calling it a "fielders balk" and some not.

[mw94]

Thanks for all of the replies. Remember I'm just looking for the LL answer.

If this wasn't my home league I would leave the coaching to the coaches, however none of the coaches know the rules very well as about 4/6 didn't even start learning the game until their kid started playing. I had one coach make his 2 base runners go back after executing a double steal just because I signaled tip (catcher caught ball) on strike 2....... And the other team just let let them!

Another coach didn't know that you can't run on dropped 3rd strike with 1st occupied and less than 2 outs.

Anyway, so if I'm understanding the consensus correctly:

I don't say anything until after the pitch is thrown and then I go correct the player? Pitch counts and no runners advance due to penalty? No penalty for multiple occurrences? Just seems odd at this age level?

Ok here is the rule and interpertation  from the 2013 LL RIM book  4.03b The pitcher, while in the act of delivering the ball to the batter, shall take the legal position.

© Except the pitcher and the catcher, any fielder may be stationed anywhere in fair territory.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

When holding a runner on first base, especially in Intermediate (50/70) Division, Juniors, Seniors and Big League Baseball, the first baseman will sometimes have his/her left foot entirely in foul territory. Do not allow this to occur. Both feet must be in fair territory. Penalty for having at least one foot on the ground

entirely in foul territory is not a balk. Simply warn the player to move into fair territory and that further occurrence can result in his/her ejection from

the game.

[etignor11]

Thanks MW94.  It would be helpful if the league would have supplied me with the 2013 edition.  I still have the 2011....... I know, I know, I'm a big boy and should have already ordered it myself.......  I just got on LL.org and bought one.