Fonzi's tough day .....

[Thunderheads]

Play at the plate ..........................

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=27430163&topic_id=9782246&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_27430163&v=3

 

 

 

Tag - no - tag at 3rd .............

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=27431525&topic_id=9782246&c_id=mlb&tcid=vpp_copy_27431525&v=3

 

[JaxRolo]

He Missed the first call and if he had a tag on the second call then he missed that as well.

 

But on the second one was the runner out of the baseline?

[Thunderheads]

He Missed the first call and if he had a tag on the second call then he missed that as well.

 

But on the second one was the runner out of the baseline?

Rolando ..... what do you think?

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

[JHSump]

He Missed the first call and if he had a tag on the second call then he missed that as well.

 

But on the second one was the runner out of the baseline?

Good point @JaxRolo

 

Looks like he is out of the baseline to me.  The baseline was established on the tag attempt.  At that point it looked to me like the baseline is a straight line essentially into the 3B bag, along the same line as the line from 2B to 3B.  Then, when the runner reaches the 3B foul line he is way more than 3 feet from that baseline (from 3B bag).

 

Seems like a good topic for discussion.

[maven]

But on the second one was the runner out of the baseline?

 

This occurred to me as well. If that's the call, it's awfully tight, since the runner is basically going right into the base anyway.

[LMSANS]

On the second one, I had the runner out of his baseline.  He was so far out he couldn't touch the base on his slide.

[maven]

The baseline was established on the tag attempt.  At that point it looked to me like the baseline is a straight line essentially into the 3B bag, along the same line as the line from 2B to 3B.  Then, when the runner reaches the 3B foul line he is way more than 3 feet from that baseline (from 3B bag).

JHS, judging "out of the baseline" is not based on where he ends up, but whether he deviates more than 3 feet from the line at the point of the tag. I'd be reluctant to use his "trajectory" to judge that. ;)

[JHSump]

 

The baseline was established on the tag attempt.  At that point it looked to me like the baseline is a straight line essentially into the 3B bag, along the same line as the line from 2B to 3B.  Then, when the runner reaches the 3B foul line he is way more than 3 feet from that baseline (from 3B bag).

JHS, judging "out of the baseline" is not based on where he ends up, but whether he deviates more than 3 feet from the line at the point of the tag. I'd be reluctant to use his "trajectory" to judge that.

 

Thanks Maven.  Ultimately, you are right, I think.  (And I am wrong --- not an unheard of event, haha.)

 

However, bear with me a second.  I have a question.  The rule says the runner's base path is established at the point of the tag, so he can't be more than 3 feet from his base path at the point of that tag attempt in the video, by definition.

 

After looking at the full rule (see below), it looks to me that in this video the base path is established at the tag attempt, then the SF runner does leave his established base path, but not because of a subsequent tag attempt.  So he can't be called out for for being out of this base path.  Does that make sense?

 

Seems to me that, in general, the rule says the base path for the runner is established on a *first* tag attempt.  You need a *subsequent* tag attempt to call him out for running out of his base path.  Or, the first tag attempt continues long enough that the runner proceeds to run out of his base path during that first attempt (very common).  Is all that correct?

 

Here is the OBR rule:

7.08 Any runner is out when—

(a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from his base path to avoid being tagged

unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball. A

runner’s base path is established when the tag attempt occurs and is a straight

line from the runner to the base he is attempting to reach safely

[Umpire in Chief]

I wish there was a way to know what the call was tag or out of the line.

[maven]

I wish there was a way to know what the call was tag or out of the line.

 

There is. The point generally signals a tag, then we check for possession, then bang the out.

[maven]

However, bear with me a second.  I have a question.  The rule says the runner's base path is established at the point of the tag, so he can't be more than 3 feet from his base path at the point of that tag attempt in the video, by definition.

 

After looking at the full rule (see below), it looks to me that in this video the base path is established at the tag attempt, then the SF runner does leave his established base path, but not because of a subsequent tag attempt.  So he can't be called out for for being out of this base path.  Does that make sense?

 

Seems to me that, in general, the rule says the base path for the runner is established on a *first* tag attempt.  You need a *subsequent* tag attempt to call him out for running out of his base path.  Or, the first tag attempt continues long enough that the runner proceeds to run out of his base path during that first attempt (very common).  Is all that correct?

I think you might be overcomplicating the call, JHS. You seem to be treating the tag attempt as instantaneous ("point of the tag"), when in fact it takes time. So the basepath is established when the tag attempt starts, and if the runner subsequently deviates 3 feet during the tag attempt, then he's out. Once the runner is past the fielder, the tag attempt is over and the runner may run as he likes.

 

In the video, I see the fielder swipe at the runner because the ball was not on line for him to be any closer to the runner. I would not like to call a runner out because the throw was offline/short.

 

The point of the rule is to prohibit a runner going around a tag, and it doesn't matter whether it's a "first" or "second" or nth tag attempt. If you're asking whether the basepath "resets" after each tag attempt, I would say yes (that's interp, not rule).

[Maineac]

I wish there was a way to know what the call was tag or out of the line.

I think he signaled out on the tag, so he never bothered looking to see if he was out of the line or not IMHO.

[JHSump]

 

However, bear with me a second.  I have a question.  The rule says the runner's base path is established at the point of the tag, so he can't be more than 3 feet from his base path at the point of that tag attempt in the video, by definition.

 

After looking at the full rule (see below), it looks to me that in this video the base path is established at the tag attempt, then the SF runner does leave his established base path, but not because of a subsequent tag attempt.  So he can't be called out for for being out of this base path.  Does that make sense?

 

Seems to me that, in general, the rule says the base path for the runner is established on a *first* tag attempt.  You need a *subsequent* tag attempt to call him out for running out of his base path.  Or, the first tag attempt continues long enough that the runner proceeds to run out of his base path during that first attempt (very common).  Is all that correct?

I think you might be overcomplicating the call, JHS. You seem to be treating the tag attempt as instantaneous ("point of the tag"), when in fact it takes time. So the basepath is established when the tag attempt starts, and if the runner subsequently deviates 3 feet during the tag attempt, then he's out. Once the runner is past the fielder, the tag attempt is over and the runner may run as he likes.

 

In the video, I see the fielder swipe at the runner because the ball was not on line for him to be any closer to the runner. I would not like to call a runner out because the throw was offline/short.

 

The point of the rule is to prohibit a runner going around a tag, and it doesn't matter whether it's a "first" or "second" or nth tag attempt. If you're asking whether the basepath "resets" after each tag attempt, I would say yes (that's interp, not rule).

 

Yeah, I think you're right --- I overcomplicated it.  At the tag attempt a baseline was established.  Then the tag attempt ended.  The runner got carried off that baseline by his momentum, but that is no problem, since the fielder was not chasing him.  If there were a subsequent tag attempt, an new baseline is established.

 

Seems reasonable.

 

In the more usual case the initiation of the tag attempt is an instantaneous event that establishes a baseline.  Then the runner runs out of that baseline as the fielder continues to chase him with the ball.  So the runner is out.

 

If all this is correct, then in the video the SF runner is not out for being out of the baseline.

[Thunderheads]

No one has brought up the question of ................was Fonzi late on the rotation giving him a poor angle?

 

(just asking)

[scrounge]

No one has brought up the question of ................was Fonzi late on the rotation giving him a poor angle?

 

(just asking)

 

I thought that too, seemed to still be moving and might have anticipated/guessed a little

[Haid D' Salaami]

 

I wish there was a way to know what the call was tag or out of the line.

 

There is. The point generally signals a tag, then we check for possession, then bang the out.

 

The point really is used by amateur umpires. There is no need to point on a tag right.. how else is he gonna be out...so he ( I would bet )  was signaling out of baseline.

[GerryB]

No one has brought up the question of ................was Fonzi late on the rotation giving him a poor angle?

 

(just asking)

My thought too...not that I'm always in the right spot on rotations but he needed to be 2BX for either call...late start?, quick play?

[maven]

My thought too...not that I'm always in the right spot on rotations but he needed to be 2BX for either call...late start?, quick play?

 

Approximately 10 seconds elapses between the batted ball and the play at 3B. That should be sufficient to read it and go 95 feet.

[basejester]

The first one is very close, much closer than the frame they froze would imply. The runner's foot is above the plate for a moment before he touches. Tie goes to the umpire.

[umpirecordova]

I was at that game and sitting along the third base line. From where I was I saw that he was late on the rotation and still moving on the play. A good position for the play should of been even with bag. Also it did seen that Alfonso was having trouble with balls and strikes. I couldn't see in or out but it looked like the giants were getting the low part of the zone that the Rockies were not. One pitcher got a little heated that lead to Alfonso takeing his mask off.

[mstaylor]

Many times one pitcher getting a strike the other isn't is caused  by the look the catcher is giving the PU..