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Had a close call on a catch/trap by F7 with no one on today. Got good position, called the catch. Jump ahead to post game with my partner. He said the call was right. He saw it as he was busting in from A. He asked a good question though, that I couldn't answer. If the BU happens to see the catch/trap by F7, and PU calls it wrong, should he offer what he saw to PU after the play? We wouldn't expect PU to ever go for help on this, since it's not BU's call, and technically, he shouldn't even see it if BR is rounding 1st at the time of catch. Just for the sake of argument/discussion, what if BU DOES see a trap or catch  when PU calls the opposite? Should BU get PU's attention after he play and tell him what he saw? Let it be since it's not his call, no way no how? Curious what you all have to say on this. 

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I'm curious about the view some umpires take of "primary responsibility." When BU is in A and the ball is hit to LF, PU has primary responsibility for catch/no catch. That does not mean sole responsib

I'm reminded of a story Jim Evans tells where he took some friends to a game he was working.  After the game he met up with them and they exclaimed, "Wow what a game! Did you see that great catch!?" a

Richvee,   No.   JM

Richvee,

 

No.

 

JM

That was my initial thought as well. If he (BU) shouldn't  be watching it in the first place, there's no way I, as PU even want to know what he saw. 

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RichVee, there is a hint in your post. BU "busting " in tells you the state of his eyeballs. His look is not as good as your look. While the BU watches the ball to read the play while "in and pivoting" or "AAA pivoting", he does not have a good look at the details and may be already turning to see the 1B responsibilitys..

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Last year, i "accidentally" saw this exact thing while "busting in" from A.  For whatever reason, my PU looked at me before making a call, and so i gave him a subdued out signal, b/c i thought i saw a catch.  PU calls OUT on my info.  DHC comes flying out, howling.  This almost led to an EJ, but we managed to get him off the field and keep him in the game.

 

Post-game debrief, my PU says he was going to call a no catch cause he thought it bounced, but called the out based on my signal. 

 

As was said above, don't even go there.  As BU, focus on your job at the moment and don't peek too much.  As PU, don't even look at your BU.  Pull up your big boy pants and make that call.  It's tough and it sucks, but you're getting paid to judge that.  Just my 2 cents, having been there, done that and showed my a$$.

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I just want to keep straight what I'm asking here. I'm in no way asking if the PU should ask for help on such a call. On any close play in LF, no self respecting PU is going to the BU for help here, and no self respecting BU is going to offer anything.  

 

What my partner was wondering was, for example, let's say PU called "catch" on a fly ball that  everyone in the park  except PU  saw bounce in front of the glove , as the BU, do you just keep it to yourself? 

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I'm curious about the view some umpires take of "primary responsibility." When BU is in A and the ball is hit to LF, PU has primary responsibility for catch/no catch. That does not mean sole responsibility.

 

At pro school, clinics, umpire instruction, and virtually every manual I have ever seen, the mantra is: "watch the ball, glance at runners." On the play in question, BU has primary responsibility for BU touch at 1B (and 2B), plus OBS/INT around the bases. But he should definitely watch the ball: the catch/no catch is the crucial first call of the play.

 

The PU should make his call and go for help if asked. The BU should be aware of the quality of his look: was he running when the ball came down? How good was his angle? If his info is not worth much, BU needs to be honest about that.

 

Sometimes the PU is straightlined (note to PU: move for a better angle — don't run straight at the fielder!), and the BU has a great angle on the catch/trap, even if he's running. Why should the fact that PU has primary responsibility for the call prevent BU from sharing that information so that the crew gets the call right?

 

We're a team out there. We do have primary and secondary responsibilities, and we need to know which is which and take care of our own calls. But I guess I'm on board with the "new school" of getting the call right in situations like this.

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BU shouldn't go to PU with unsolicited help but if PU has doubts and there arent multiple runers where changing the call would lead to more trouble then PU can ask.  Should happen even less than the pulled foot at first. lol.

Well, there wouldn't be multiple runners since it's 2 man crew, and BU in A.  :wave:

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The ball is secondary for the BU, and yes the manuals say watch the ball, glance at the runner. I modify that when I teach and when I work. 

1. Ball is hit, you read the ball to see if you have outfield coverage.

2.No coverage, get inside, watch the runner.

3. Once the runner touches first and there has been no obstruction, pick the ball up. 

4. At that point is when the watch the ball, glance at the runner kicks in. Many times you never see the catch at all. 

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2.No coverage, get inside, watch the runner.

 

I would not teach that. What's going to happen to the BR between HP and 1B that I need to observe?

 

I'm watching the catch/no catch until I pivot and see the runner touch and round 1B. If I have to pick up the touch before catch/no catch is done, so be it: my primary is BR @ 1B. But I will have eyes on every catch/no catch that I can.

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No matter where you are on the field, or what your responsibility is on that particular batted ball-WATCH THE BALL, GLANCE AT RUNNERS.

If a trouble ball is happening, STAY WITH THE CATCH/NO CATCH or ball leaving play. If that means missing a touch of a base-so be it.

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I disagree but I realize I am contrary to the common mantra. You have the touch and there obstruction going around first, that is your primary. A ball hit to left is the PU all the way. You have no angle so why be concerned? If it is more to center,I see your point, LF not so much.

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2.No coverage, get inside, watch the runner.

 

I would not teach that. What's going to happen to the BR between HP and 1B that I need to observe?

 

I'm watching the catch/no catch until I pivot and see the runner touch and round 1B. If I have to pick up the touch before catch/no catch is done, so be it: my primary is BR @ 1B. But I will have eyes on every catch/no catch that I can.

 

That's what mstaylor is saying with his point 3.

 

And I think all of us or at least most of us are agreeing that you need to do your primary responsibilities first but if you can then help out without giving up on your primary responsibilities then do so.  Sometimes you can and sometimes you cant depending on the timing and exactly what happens.

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The trouble ball doesn't get caught, goes to the fence, you are watching out instead of the touch, runner gets knocked down but you didn't see it. That SH*#storm you created for no reason. Call it as taught in your group but I prefer to teach them to watch it while coming in but then the runner is primary.

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:lol: pretty much. Stuff happens on the field,we never know when, but we are taught to watch for it. That trouble ball that toy have no angle on is not your primary, the touch and obstruction is, why pass it off for little gain?

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:lol: pretty much. Stuff happens on the field,we never know when, but we are taught to watch for it. That trouble ball that toy have no angle on is not your primary, the touch and obstruction is, why pass it off for little gain?

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I certainly never said that, and I see nobody else in this thread who has suggested sacrificing your primary responsiblity in order to see the catch/no catch. You're suggesting a false choice: EITHER watch the BR the entire time, OR ignore your primary to watch the ball.

 

I said: watch the ball and glance at runners. I will watch the ball to help with catch/no catch until I have to turn and cover my primary responsibility. My primary is primary, and if I have nothing to help my partner, that's how it goes.

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I didn't say you did but cbrown did in post 13.

 

So he did. My mistake. I don't agree with that philosophy: cover your primary, help your partner when you can.

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I'm curious about the view some umpires take of "primary responsibility." When BU is in A and the ball is hit to LF, PU has primary responsibility for catch/no catch. That does not mean sole responsibility.

 

At pro school, clinics, umpire instruction, and virtually every manual I have ever seen, the mantra is: "watch the ball, glance at runners." On the play in question, BU has primary responsibility for BU touch at 1B (and 2B), plus OBS/INT around the bases. But he should definitely watch the ball: the catch/no catch is the crucial first call of the play.

 

The PU should make his call and go for help if asked. The BU should be aware of the quality of his look: was he running when the ball came down? How good was his angle? If his info is not worth much, BU needs to be honest about that.

 

Sometimes the PU is straightlined (note to PU: move for a better angle — don't run straight at the fielder!), and the BU has a great angle on the catch/trap, even if he's running. Why should the fact that PU has primary responsibility for the call prevent BU from sharing that information so that the crew gets the call right?

 

We're a team out there. We do have primary and secondary responsibilities, and we need to know which is which and take care of our own calls. But I guess I'm on board with the "new school" of getting the call right in situations like this.

 

Absolutely agree with you on this and if I were the BU and saw something different I wouldn't volunteer anything but would certainly give my PU some non verbal signals that I had something for him.

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Absolutely agree with you on this and if I were the BU and saw something different I wouldn't volunteer anything but would certainly give my PU some non verbal signals that I had something for him.

I'm very cautious about these. Generally speaking, there are no secrets: good coaches pick up everything we do. In my experience, unusual signals cause more problems with coaches than they solve, and I cannot recommend them.

 

Other than looking at PU and moving toward him a bit, I would not otherwise signal him. It's his call, and he will need to decide whether to get help and then what to do with it once he gets it.

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I don't mind standing by it. A lot of times you DO have a good angle on a trouble ball coming in from A, and 99/100 times not seeing touch when something funny is happening regarding tha ball at the almost exact same time you will miss nothing.

If 2-man all we ever really do is compromise looks for one reason or another and I don't see this as any different.

IF sh*t hits fan with the BR coming around first, AND a coach sees it, AND it ends up mattering, AND he comes out to ask what I saw- I am 1000% sure I can talk my way out of it by explaining my rational for not looking at the touch but rather the teouble catch/no catch. If HC has a problem with it, well he can either build a bridge and get over it or, not. I could care less.

Now, would I teach this to a group of LL umpires? Not sure because I have never worked with that level of umpire, but usually I assume when we talk mechanics here on UE we can go beyond the basics, since most who take the time to read these posts know the basics at this point and want to discuss nuances in order to get opinion from people they trust so they can improve.

Of course MST is entitled to disagree, and that is cool with me!

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A question related to all of this - if you pre-game it properly, could this be covered under the BU going out on a trouble ball and the PU picking up the B/R?  I know it's a no-brainer for trouble balls down the line in "A", but is there any reason the BU can't read this as a trouble ball and go out on it?  Now if BU comes in and takes a pivot, no way the PU should go to him for help nor should he offer any.

 

I know this doesn't apply to every situation (and I can't see the OP which is on the first page), so if I am off-base feel free to let me know...

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