Low strike consistency

Jocko · April 5, 2013

Watching Cubs game this morning. I think P Cuzzi had the stick. He hesitated on an outside away pitch, leaned over and looked down before calling it a K. It was a great call. Pitch was definitely in the zone. F2 wanted inside, got outside. Cross up but Phil nailed it. Bad mechanics?

Jocko, bad mechanics meaning he hesitated and readjusted his look or that he called a strike at their level where the F1 missed his spot outside on an inside pitch? Without seeing the video, could he have been "pinched off" from seeing low and outside by how F2 set up inside, and once the pitch was received Cuzzi just did what he had to do to call the pitch? exactly my point. Goes against everything we're taught about not moving and tracking and such. But he nailed it.

@Jax- I'm not spending the time to hunt for 1 pitch in 1 game. Sorry. Should watched it live yourself :fuel:

JaxRolo · April 6, 2013

@Jax- I'm not spending the time to hunt for 1 pitch in 1 game. Sorry. Should watched it live yourself

Lazy a$$

Jocko · April 6, 2013

@Jax- I'm not spending the time to hunt for 1 pitch in 1 game. Sorry. Should watched it live yourself

Lazy a$$

Yep! Jeff is the MLB video guy. I don't have the tools/resources.

mstaylor · April 7, 2013

Take a look at the height of F2's knees when he is in his crouch. Allowing for the exception of an extremely tall or short batter, his (F2) knees are pretty darn close to the height of a typical batter's, and can be used as the low end of the strike zone. If F2 sticks a FB at his own knee, I know I have a strike. Most good F2's know this. That is why, if you track the ball all the way to the glove, you can see em catch the ball at their shin and quickly pull it up to their knee. On breaking pitches, adjust accordingly.

Of course, this will only work if you incorporate the previous advice given for the proper use of your eyes (timing) and being in a consistent position to actually see F2 receive the ball. Like already stated, see it into the glove, evaluate it, then call it.

Good advice at certain levels. The younger the catchers the farther they sit back and the less you can use the catcher to help. I tossed a manager that was crying over breaking pitches that were high coming across. The manager was seeing his catcher receiving pitches at perfect strike height. What he couldn't understand was his catcher was sitting five feet back from where he should be and so the catcher was lying to him. He then preceded to accuse me off calling two zones, boom, to the parking lot.

Mr Ump · April 8, 2013

Take a look at the height of F2's knees when he is in his crouch. Allowing for the exception of an extremely tall or short batter, his (F2) knees are pretty darn close to the height of a typical batter's, and can be used as the low end of the strike zone. If F2 sticks a FB at his own knee, I know I have a strike. Most good F2's know this. That is why, if you track the ball all the way to the glove, you can see em catch the ball at their shin and quickly pull it up to their knee. On breaking pitches, adjust accordingly.

Of course, this will only work if you incorporate the previous advice given for the proper use of your eyes (timing) and being in a consistent position to actually see F2 receive the ball. Like already stated, see it into the glove, evaluate it, then call it.

I use the catchers knees too as an aide to the bottom of the zone. I also take a moment and size up my batter, especially his height in relationship to the catcher's knees. I make sure that I am in the slot, can see the outside corner and have my eyes set at the top of the zone and my chin over the catcher's head. Once I started this method I no longer had low strike issues.

Magic · April 8, 2013

Take a look at the height of F2's knees when he is in his crouch. Allowing for the exception of an extremely tall or short batter, his (F2) knees are pretty darn close to the height of a typical batter's, and can be used as the low end of the strike zone. If F2 sticks a FB at his own knee, I know I have a strike. Most good F2's know this. That is why, if you track the ball all the way to the glove, you can see em catch the ball at their shin and quickly pull it up to their knee. On breaking pitches, adjust accordingly.

Of course, this will only work if you incorporate the previous advice given for the proper use of your eyes (timing) and being in a consistent position to actually see F2 receive the ball. Like already stated, see it into the glove, evaluate it, then call it.

Good advice at certain levels. The younger the catchers the farther they sit back and the less you can use the catcher to help. I tossed a manager that was crying over breaking pitches that were high coming across. The manager was seeing his catcher receiving pitches at perfect strike height. What he couldn't understand was his catcher was sitting five feet back from where he should be and so the catcher was lying to him. He then preceded to accuse me off calling two zones, boom, to the parking lot.

You must have been working the same game I was today. Coach tells me I need to widen the zone. I say "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." He said it sure doesn't seem that way. Seems to me like you have 2 Strike Zones to me. I responded with ok coach we aren't going to talk about my Strike Zone any more. He goes back to the Dugout. The very next pitch was inside. I ball it. He YELLS "BILL YOU ARE HORRIBLE! You are going to take it out on the kids. I dumped him. Then he comes out on me and gets in my face and tells me to go back to Little League. It was a pleasant day.

maven · April 8, 2013

You must have been working the same game I was today. Coach tells me I need to widen the zone. I say "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." He said it sure doesn't seem that way. Seems to me like you have 2 Strike Zones to me. I responded with ok coach we aren't going to talk about my Strike Zone any more. He goes back to the Dugout. The very next pitch was inside. I ball it. He YELLS "BILL YOU ARE HORRIBLE! You are going to take it out on the kids. I dumped him. Then he comes out on me and gets in my face and tells me to go back to Little League. It was a pleasant day.

Magic, may I suggest that you think about this response? You engaged in a conversation about the zone, but when it didn't go your way you ended it.

When coach makes a comment about my zone, I immediately go to, "We're not going to discuss the zone today, coach." If he starts again, I'll interrupt him and repeat, more firmly, what I just said. Usually twice is sufficient.

My point: if you don't want to discuss the zone, then you shouldn't discuss it. Don't start a discussion only to stop it.

Righteous EJ, though.

Magic · April 8, 2013

I am not sure what you mean it didn't go my way? As soon as a coach suggests that I have 2 different zones our conversation ends. I am all about giving a coach a chance to explain himself to me about my zone. And if it has merit I will try and fix it. I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. But when you tell me you think I have 2 different zones, then that attacks my integrity. You have now suggested that I am cheating for the other team. I don't cheat for anyone. I am not going to be suggested that I do. As far as I am concerned he can tell me my zone is a pile of Cow Dung. But if you say I cheat or that I am a pile of Cow Dung, then our conversation ends. And usually you are going to end up leaving the game.

maven · April 8, 2013

I am not sure what you mean it didn't go my way? As soon as a coach suggests that I have 2 different zones our conversation ends.

That's not what you reported above. According to your post, when the coach complained about your zone you said, "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." That is NOT ending the conversation, that's continuing it.

I'm simply recommending that you consider not adding such a comment. You are welcome to take my recommendation for what it's worth.

24sdad · April 8, 2013

Mr. Taylor made a very good point regarding F2. For me at least, a good F2 will make those pitches that everyone usually pisses and moans about "look" like strikes. And if the ball is out of the zone (but relatively close), he does not try and jerk the ball back into the zone, holding it there like an idiot. He receives it and it is usually on its way back to the pitcher before I even ball it. He is the kind of kid that you ball a pitch off the plate and when the HC asks WHERE WAS THAT ONE, F2 takes over and and yells it was outside (and then whispers to me "I got you"). A good F2 knows even if we butcher a pitch, why gripe about it? It is not going to change the call. He is the same kind of guy that will block a 55 foot curve ball with no one on base (instead of just ole'ing it) because he understands his role. The kind of kid that KNOWS not to ask for time after ball four until the B/R gets to first. The kind of kid you enjoy calling a game behind. Right or wrong and flame away, but that is the kid I will whisper to, "go tell your pitch I need a better stop" instead of balking his F1. And maybe, just maybe (ya never know), but when he is batting and takes a borderline pitch (not a cock shot or anything grabbing a good part of the plate), I typically ball it. Before everyone goes crazy and calls me a cheater, i know its wrong but probably happens, maybe, once a month, but there it is. I know, I'm a bastard.

On the other hand you have a weak, untrained or lazy F2. I still try to work with him to get strikes (but never coaching), but he makes it hard sometimes. Sweeping curve that he catches on outside corner and continues to carry the pitch outside of the zone instead of sticking it. Or the one he catches in the lower part of the zone and allows his glove to continue into the dirt. Both probably strikes, but F2 made them LOOK like balls. This does not happen all that often as varsity BB here in So Cal is pretty high level, but occasionally you get a D4 F2 that is just learning. When he does that to a strike, I can usually expect one of his coaches to yell if he would have "stuck" the pitch it would have been a strike.

I am sure Michael just neglected to mention this, but if you do work the younger levels and encounter a F2 that sets up too far back, do not tell him to move up. As sure as anything, as soon as you do he will move TOO far up and the first words out of his mouth following CI will be "blue told me to move up." Better left mentioning it to the coach and leaving it up to him to move or not move is F2.

maven · April 8, 2013

I am sure Michael just neglected to mention this, but if you do work the younger levels and encounter a F2 that sets up too far back, do not tell him to move up. As sure as anything, as soon as you do he will move TOO far up and the first words out of his mouth following CI will be "blue told me to move up." Better left mentioning it to the coach and leaving it up to him to move or not move is F2.

A lot of red meat in that post, but I'll add that this is good advice. But DO talk to the coach, who often is paying no attention to his F2: "Coach, he's set up awfully far back â€” too far back to make the breaking pitch look good. Did you set him there?"

It's OK to coach the coach, especially at lower levels (and of course assuming that you know what the hell you're talking about).

Magic · April 8, 2013

I am not sure what you mean it didn't go my way? As soon as a coach suggests that I have 2 different zones our conversation ends.

That's not what you reported above. According to your post, when the coach complained about your zone you said, "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." That is NOT ending the conversation, that's continuing it.

I'm simply recommending that you consider not adding such a comment. You are welcome to take my recommendation for what it's worth.

I agree you are recommending but I still don't know how I didn't end the conversation?

I say "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." He said it sure doesn't seem that way. Seems to me like you have 2 Strike Zones to me.

At that point the conversation is over. I ended it. He suggested I had 2 different zones. Therefore his conversation is now null and void. I ended it instead of just Ejecting him for telling me I am cheating.

Now had he come back with something like, "Well we are getting killed here. Do you think you can make it a little bigger? I would have responded, coach I will do my best.

HokieUmp · April 8, 2013

I am not sure what you mean it didn't go my way? As soon as a coach suggests that I have 2 different zones our conversation ends.

That's not what you reported above. According to your post, when the coach complained about your zone you said, "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." That is NOT ending the conversation, that's continuing it.

I'm simply recommending that you consider not adding such a comment. You are welcome to take my recommendation for what it's worth.

I agree you are recommending but I still don't know how I didn't end the conversation?

I say "Coach how wide would you like it? That ball missed by about a foot outside." He said it sure doesn't seem that way. Seems to me like you have 2 Strike Zones to me.

At that point the conversation is over. I ended it. He suggested I had 2 different zones. Therefore his conversation is now null and void. I ended it instead of just Ejecting him for telling me I am cheating.

Now had he come back with something like, "Well we are getting killed here. Do you think you can make it a little bigger? I would have responded, coach I will do my best.

I shouldn't speak for maven - and if I'm wrong, maven, please say so - but his objection might be that although you did eventually end it, you actually opened the door to his ejection. It took him longer to pull the ripcord on his own, but you helped lead him there.

Even if you meant it as rhetorical, that "How wide would you like it?" question lets him keep on talking. And that's where he then accused you of cheating. Honestly, that SHOULD have been the ejection point, since you've already acknowledged you knew he was doing so.

How about responding with just a) a hard stare at the "widen the zone" comment, or b) ignoring it as ignorant, or c) telling him the conversation is over right at that moment, rather than opening the door further with a question. Or some other option I might be forgetting.

It may not have made a difference, since the rest of your story suggests he was looking for SOMEthing to gripe and complain about.

maven · April 8, 2013

This. ^

Magic · April 9, 2013