"Safe Initially, Now Tagged Out..."

[Scotty_Ump]

Came across this video from the WBC.  What is the proper mechanic for this play?  When both tag and plate were missed, should the UIC have signaled nothing until the tag was finally made?  Making that "safe" call initially doesn't make much sense to me.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=25647757&topic_id=41639656

 

I did think the play-by-play call was quite amusing:  "Safe initially, now tagged out at the plate!"  

[BalkHawk]

The BU should make NO SIGNAL when this happens. Just stare, adjust a little maybe, wait until the runner is tagged out or touches home. I would add a "no tag" here, vocal only. 

 

 

[SnareDrum]

The same thing popped up last summer on here. Maybe the PU did it as he was taught. The safe was for "no tag". Then, the out was called on the tag. There have been a few threads on here in the past on this very thing, and the opinions varied as you may expect.

 

.Texas softball team eliminated after ump correctly rules runner safe ...

 

-Signals at the plate - Page 2 - Umpire Mechanics - Umpire-Empire -

 

No Tag vs Safe - Umpire Mechanics - Umpire-Empire

 

ichiro safe at plate in ny-balt game - Professional - Umpire-Empire

 

This isn't all of them, but they seem to be the main ones. From what I can see/understand, the mechanic is correct. The runner slides past the base combined with the fielder missing the tag. "No tag" is signaled (and maybe verbalized). I've never made the safe signal on play at the plate such as this. By my doing nothing, both fielder and runner know that they have to do something and they tend to react to accordingly. The act of calling safe then out, IMO, is a bit cumbersome and can look confusing (as well as maybe making me look confused), but I'm here to learn like everybody else... so everybody else can weigh in once again. Maybe start off with, "When the runner slides past home and the fielder misses the tag, I _________________________.

 

I have a meeting this week, and I'm going to bring this up (there'll be several college guys there). I'd like to get it right and do this the way it's expected. I seem to get a couple of these a year...

 

Sidenote: Jocko added this back in July about how it applies on the bases (somewhere in the second link up there). In the video above, the mechanic was applied at home.

 

From MLBUM 2010:

34. Interpretation of Rule 7.01: Appeal Plays: Approved Rulings

(12) Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first
base but misses the bag.
Ruling: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to call the runner
safe, indicating he beat the play. If the defense appeals by tagging
the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base
before the runner returns to first base the batter-runner would be declared
out. Note also Official Baseball Rule 7.08(k) Comment.

[Replacematt]

The BU should make NO SIGNAL when this happens. Just stare, adjust a little maybe, wait until the runner is tagged out or touches home. I would add a "no tag" here, vocal only. 

 

 

 

This is correct.

[krwill96]

Making no call is correct for home plate only. Any other base you make the call.

PBUC umpire manual 6.3 Runner misses home plate pg 50- "On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder misses the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play"

[SnareDrum]

Making no call is correct for home plate only. Any other base you make the call.

PBUC umpire manual 6.3 Runner misses home plate pg 50- "On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder misses the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play"

------------------------------------

 

Thanks.

[BalkHawk]

Making no call is correct for home plate only. Any other base you make the call.

PBUC umpire manual 6.3 Runner misses home plate pg 50- "On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder misses the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play"

 

Aren't we talking only about  ? I also left out that F2 can appeal at home once the runner leaves the dirt circle.

 

At first it's "that's nothing."

[mw94]

that is MLB umpire Paul Emmel

[krwill96]

Yes we're discussing home plate only but snaredrum used an example of a play at first just wanted to clarify the play.

[SnareDrum]

Yes we're discussing home plate only but snaredrum used an example of a play at first just wanted to clarify the play.

-------------------------

Exactly. I should've added that I think that this is where confusion on a plate situation comes in. 

[sdix00]

Last year, when we had a similar discussion, the general consensus was that "On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder misses the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play"

 

However, there was a side thread on what would happen if the tag attempt occurred a certain distance up the line, or away from the plate.    If I remember correctly, the general consensus was to give the Safe mechanic to indicate the missed tag away from the plate. 

 

If those two mechanics are generally correct, then I think it can be argued that this umpire did the right thing.     For me, the main argument would be - was the play far enough up the line to make this mechanic?

[noumpere]

Last year, when we had a similar discussion, the general consensus was that "On a play at the plate, should the runner miss home plate and the fielder misses the tag on the runner, the umpire shall make no signal on the play"

 

However, there was a side thread on what would happen if the tag attempt occurred a certain distance up the line, or away from the plate.    If I remember correctly, the general consensus was to give the Safe mechanic to indicate the missed tag away from the plate. 

 

If those two mechanics are generally correct, then I think it can be argued that this umpire did the right thing.     For me, the main argument would be - was the play far enough up the line to make this mechanic?

I don't have this play as far enough away but I agree that's the judgement to be used.  I'd kind of use the dirt circle as being about the guideline point.

[GreyhoundAggie]

I think on this one it's because it is blatant that the runner is no where near home plate, so you can't be signaling safe for touching the plate.

 

The umpire is saying "I have no tag", and then bangs him when the tag is applied. I can see the no call on a play where everyone would assume he had touched, etc.

 

I like the mechanics he used here.

[Jocko]

Concerning plays at 1B: Once BR misses 1b, the "force" is off and it becomes an appeal. The appeal can be made by tagging the BR, or by INTENTIONALLY appealing by touching the bag. There can be no "Accidental" appeals in this sitch. Just because he caught the ball while touching the bag doesn't qualify as PROPER appeal. The appropriate mechanic is to give the safe sign, even though BR missed 1B. Then, if 1B verbally appeals or tags BR, you give the out mechanic and verbal, probably followed by an explanation.

[BalkHawk]

Your call is not meant to be in code. If you have a tag attempt up the line, but no tag, give the safe signal and scream "NO TAG!" There's really no room for confusion unless the runner is very close to the plate. Just like on a D3K, if F2 is chasing b/r swiping at him, you say "no tag" and signal safe every time he misses.

To expound on what Jocko said, a runner who has passed a base is assumed to have touched, until a proper appeal is made. So when the b/r passes the bag without touching, and beats the ball, or a train wreck happens and he doesn't touch, but there was no tag, give the extra long 'that's nothing' safe signal. For the train wreck, add the vocal. That's nothing, no OBS, no INT, no out. They can't even come argue. I saw that, in my judgement, nothing illegal happened.

Upon proper appeal, give the best out sell you got. This is an intense, close, exciting play, especially if its a time play.

[mstaylor]

I am way late to this, still catching up, but I am the school of,"If there is a play, it needs a call." Unless it is right on top of the plate, I am showing a safe signal. That wide you have to show it. MHO