Getting it right without throwing your partner under the bus

[mstaylor]

I only read the first page but is you made the award, why the hell is the PU talking to him at all. If you are going to get in the conversation, tell him you made the call, come talk to you. If not, stay out. Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

[VolUmp]

Jocko,

 

If J/R are not considered official by anyone's standards, where do we presume that a catch is not a play?

I realize that FED had a rule to cover my folly.  I get that.

But I still don't see any definition, in any rule set, that clarifies that a catch is not a play.

If J/R declares that a dropped attempted catch is not a play, then it would seem that the converse of that (to have caught it) would have been a play.

It sure wouldn't be a difficult thing to declare somewhere in the OBR, NCAA, or FED book that a catch is not a play.

I just don't buy this idea that a catch is neither a play or a non-play.  It's one or the other.

[basejester]

Easy, we'll just look up play in section 2.0.

“PLAY†is the umpire’s order to start the game or to resume action following any

dead ball.

OK, maybe not.

How about this?

A DOUBLE PLAY is a play by the defense in which two offensive players are put

out as a result of continuous action, providing there is no error between putouts.

If a double play is putting out two players, a play is putting out one player, right?

Is there a reason this rule couldn't be two bases from time of throw, period? It seems stupidly complex.

[BalkHawk]

In terms of a "play", think of an outfielder catching a fly ball the same as you do an outfielder retrieving a base hit that is rolling to him. Neither is a "play."

[VolUmp]

MotoUmp, I am asking where, how, what, why is a catch not considered a play?  Regardless of whether by an infielder or an outfielder.

Basejester's example is perfect.  And catching a line drive and doubling R1 off at 1B is a double play.  It is not logical ... not at all ... to call a ground ball throw out a PLAY, but not a line drive catch, a fly ball catch, or a pop up catch.

 

Please, if anyone can answer the question without avoiding rulebooks, casebooks, or accepted interp manuals, I'd love to hear it.

I want to see in writing from a respected source that a CATCH IS NOT CONSIDERED A PLAY.

 

(Don't bother ... you won't find it.)

[BalkHawk]

And another thing, why do we drive on a parkway and park on a driveway?

 

In baseball, a "double play" (denoted on statistics sheets by DP) for a team or a fielder is the act of making two outs during the same continuous playing (try to ignore the p-word here) action.

A "play" (not to be confused) is the act of a fielder to retire a runner.

You can retire a "batter" by catching his batted ball in flight, but to retire a "batter/runner" you have to throw to 1st base, where he is forced out, or tag him, or in other words, you have to make a "play."

 

 

[BalkHawk]

Do you consider Jacksa and Roder an accepted interp manual? They cite 5 examples which constitute a "play". None of them is a catch. They also say dropping a fly ball or line drive does NOT constitute a "play". If he dropped it, did he not make the same attempt to retire the batter? Yes, he did. However, neither attempt, for our purposes, is considered a "play". 

 

How would you explain the fact that a rundown IS considered a "play" even though a step or few steps in the direction of the runner, as well as a feint of a throw, isn't. The rundown is nothing more than two or three not-a-plays strung together.

[AZump78]

In general: Play=Ball+Runner

[VolUmp]

Ahhhhh I think I see the light.

 

There has never been an unassisted triple play in the history of Major League Baseball.

Those 6 episodes which are all referred to erroneously as unassisted triple plays by a middle infielder are technically catches ... followed by an unassisted double play.

Got it.

 

The strike-him-out, throw-him-out double play is a terrible misnomer.

[UmpJM]

WildFlyer,

 

From the MLBUM (which is as "official" as it gets for OBR interps):

 

 

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases

(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

 

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has

possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a

runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or

actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the

runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an

attempted play.

 

You will note that it specifically states that the context in which this definition applies is solely with regard to awards and appeals.

 

JM

[Jocko]

And that, as they say is that. Next question?

[Replacematt]

How are babies made?

[Jocko]

How are babies made?

after a "play" :fuel: :fuel:

[Big Red]

How are babies made?

OBR -- The definitive life guide where all questions are answered:

1.  Get to first base

2.  Get to second base

3.  Get to third base

4.  Make it to home plate -- Score! 

 

Important caveat:  MC while going all the way WILL result in an ejection, an early trip to the showers (and cold at that) and most likely a very long, if not lifetime ban from playing that ballpark again!

[noumpere]

WildFlyer,

 

From the MLBUM (which is as "official" as it gets for OBR interps):

 

 

 

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases

(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

 

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has

possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a

runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or

actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the

runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an

attempted play.

 

You will note that it specifically states that the context in which this definition applies is solely with regard to awards and appeals.

 

JM

Thank you for finally being the one to quote this.  I can't believe that there was so much discussion about it.  Even if others didn't have the manual handy to quote, someone should have read it and known it was in there.

[BalkHawk]

^^^^^Thanks for leaving it up to someone other than yourself!

 

Also, thank you all for not calling my bluff on the whole retiring the batter vs. retiring the batter/runner. 

 

[noumpere]

^^^^^Thanks for leaving it up to someone other than yourself!

 

Also, thank you all for not calling my bluff on the whole retiring the batter vs. retiring the batter/runner. 

 

Yes, I could have added that I was out of the area all weekend so didn't even read the thread until this morning.  I just get more upset than I should I guess when I read 60 responses (or whatever) when theres a simple clear explanation so only 1 is needed.

[Jocko]

Right. See the VERY FIRST response

[BalkHawk]

How are babies made?

OBR -- The definitive life guide where all questions are answered:

1.  Get to first base

2.  Get to second base

3.  Get to third base

4.  Make it to home plate -- Score! 

 

Important caveat:  MC while going all the way WILL result in an ejection, an early trip to the showers (and cold at that) and most likely a very long, if not lifetime ban from playing that ballpark again!

 

Even more important caveat: If you want babies, you have to ditch your helmet before you score.

^^^^^Thanks for leaving it up to someone other than yourself!

 

Also, thank you all for not calling my bluff on the whole retiring the batter vs. retiring the batter/runner. 

 

Yes, I could have added that I was out of the area all weekend so didn't even read the thread until this morning.  I just get more upset than I should I guess when I read 60 responses (or whatever) when theres a simple clear explanation so only 1 is needed.

 

[BalkHawk]

Right. See the VERY FIRST response

 

Jocko! Jocko! Jocko!

[Jocko]

Right. See the VERY FIRST response

Jocko! Jocko! Jocko!

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then

[noumpere]

Right. See the VERY FIRST response

Good one I had forgot about that over the weekend.

 

So, we have a correct answer on the first response, a quick clarification of where it is in FED, some additional support from J/R and then a bunch of additional questions on it. (and I recognize that there were some side topics also being discussed). 

 

Maybe I'm just getting too old for this.

[maineump]

One of the first things I was taught years ago was to not talk to your partner between innings, especially after a controversy. As you stated, it had nothing to do with the original play, but the perception is there. Work out the details of that play in your post game. There are 3 teams on the field, and we can't show SOME coaches that we are not working on the same page.

You made the award, the coach should have come to you for the reasoning that you had, however he didn't. In that case what about getting together (without the coach)), talk it over and make the call?

This is one of the things I talk about in a pre-game with my partner - if there is a question on a play/call, then get together. That way we make the call as a united front and no one gets 'thrown under the bus'.

I don't go to my partner's side unless the coach gets animated, ejected or a second coach gets involved.

I hope that you guys are working together again - leave it on the field