Force Play Slide Rule-Fed

[Minnz]

So the always entertaining and (IMO dumb rule) of forced slide popped up this past weekend.  R1 slide high and made contact above the knee.  FED rules state that is the automatic call and R1 and BR are now out.  

 

Here is the questions though that came up casually with a coach.  How do you determine when the intent in malicious.  Some people have said anytime you slide high you are going in hard and malicious, others say it is just baseball.  of course in the FED rules you have to be nice and safe and can't even slide hard.

 

So fellow umpires, when would you eject for a slide with contact above the knee vs. just enforcing the force play slide rule penalty.

[semper_fi_72]

When you can judge there was intent to be malicious.

It is apparent when it occurs.

The sliding runner will do something else with his feet and legs, like kick at the fielder.

You will know it when you see it.

[scrounge]

If it even looks like the slider is trying to use a high spike to gain any advantage at all, unless I'm positive that the kid just bounced wrong or had no ill-intent, then I'd call it malicious and not even think twice about it.

[Jocko]

As someone once said about pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

[johnnyg08]

Minnz, on 25 Feb 2013 - 14:20, said:

So the always entertaining and (IMO dumb rule) of forced slide popped up this past weekend. R1 slide high and made contact above the knee. FED rules state that is the automatic call and R1 and BR are now out.

Here is the questions though that came up casually with a coach. How do you determine when the intent in malicious. Some people have said anytime you slide high you are going in hard and malicious, others say it is just baseball. of course in the FED rules you have to be nice and safe and can't even slide hard.

So fellow umpires, when would you eject for a slide with contact above the knee vs. just enforcing the force play slide rule penalty.

Remember it doesn't have to be malicious. You can have FPSR w/o an ejection. To answer your question, contact above the knee could be judged either way. I had one last year and not for 1 second did I consider ejecting.

I got two outs on the play, but it just wasn't that type of play in my judgment.

It is a safety rule, if you're going to make a mistake, make the mistake on the side of safety for the kid.

You'll never regret erring on the side of safety. You could regret not erring on the side of safety.

Good post...thanks for the question.

[Minnz]

This is where I have an issue I guess.  When I played, if I went in to slide high my intent was to knock the SS/2B off the play.  Anytime spikes go high I would think intent is there.  Now like I said I before, heck contact should happen this is baseball and the FED has gone too far for safety on things like this.

 

I do not want to eject kids (in fact I have a very very slow trigger finger) for playing good hard baseball, but anytime you go above the knee isn't that intent to do something outside the normal rules?

[noumpere]

This is where I have an issue I guess.  When I played, if I went in to slide high my intent was to knock the SS/2B off the play.  Anytime spikes go high I would think intent is there.  Now like I said I before, heck contact should happen this is baseball and the FED has gone too far for safety on things like this.

 

I do not want to eject kids (in fact I have a very very slow trigger finger) for playing good hard baseball, but anytime you go above the knee isn't that intent to do something outside the normal rules?

What you said " intent to do something outside the normal rules" isn't the same as malicious contact.  Malicious contact is intent to injure.  You need to decide, thats why you get the big $$$ and the call isn't automatic but you should get your antenna up when you see this.

 

And, there's nothing wrong with a good hard baseball slide as long as its on the ground and infront of or over the bag.

[SnareDrum]

In a two man, the PU should be watching for this also and could make the call, or just be ready to assist BU on a "what did you see" if needed? 

[noumpere]

In a two man, the PU should be watching for this also and could make the call, or just be ready to assist BU on a "what did you see" if needed? 

If it happens before the throw then it's primarily BU's call and if it happens after the throw then it's primarily PU's call.

[SnareDrum]

In a two man, the PU should be watching for this also and could make the call, or just be ready to assist BU on a "what did you see" if needed? 

If it happens before the throw then it's primarily BU's call and if it happens after the throw then it's primarily PU's call.

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Just double-checking... something I'll be doing plenty of for the next 2.5 weeks! Thanks.

[JaxRolo]

You said you can't slide hard. I disagree. A runner can slide as hard as he wants. Just do it legally.

[bam]

Noumpere said

"And, there's nothing wrong with a good hard baseball slide as long as its on the ground and infront of or over the bag."

What rule set?

[alex7]

Every rule set allows for some contact on legal slides.

[Jocko]

^^^^^ That raht thar ^^^^^

Not all contact is illegal

Not all contact is malicious

A legal slide (not a pop-up/overslide/spikes-up,etc) where R contacts the defender is still a legal slide regardless of the force of the impact. If R, in performing a legal slide, contacts F6 (or whoever) and indeed breaks up the DP.... He did his job.

[grayhawk]

I had a play in a HS game last summer (one man) with R1 and a grounder hit to F4.  F6 is on the 2B bag when R1 comes in sliding.  He slid straight in, feet below F6's knee, but hard.  His momentum carried him through F6 and the back edge of the bag.  I called nothing other than an out on R1 for the force at second.  F6 was hurt and I called time.  I walked out with DC and he wants FPSR.  I told him that F6 was on the bag and R1 slid legally.  After a minute or so, F6 got up and did not have to be removed from the game.

 

Was it a hard slide?  Yes.  Was it malicious?  No.  Was it all legal?  Yup.

[James Walker]

A good coach will teach how to slide hard to break up the dp. Any time a kid comes in hard with spikes up, he's deliberately trying to injure someone. To me, its the definition of MC.

[johnnyg08]

A good coach will teach how to slide hard to break up the dp. Any time a kid comes in hard with spikes up, he's deliberately trying to injure someone. To me, its the definition of MC.

 

 

I get what the two of you are saying there.  Maybe I need to reconsider my interpretation?  Something to think about.  I'd love to see some video clips or even still pictures. 

[Richvee]

A good coach will teach how to slide hard to break up the dp. Any time a kid comes in hard with spikes up, he's deliberately trying to injure someone. To me, its the definition of MC.

 

 

I get what the two of you are saying there.  Maybe I need to reconsider my interpretation?  Something to think about.  I'd love to see some video clips or even still pictures. 

Did you guys catch this thread?

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/52069-new-hs-videos-from-azboa-ci-and-fpsr/

[Pete Peterson Sr]

As someone once said about pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

 

 

 

 I believe it was Supreme Court Justice Stewart Potter...

[noumpere]

Noumpere said

"And, there's nothing wrong with a good hard baseball slide as long as its on the ground and infront of or over the bag."

What rule set?

All of them.

 

Fed limits it to that.  NCAA allows contact directly behind the base (in the base line extended) and a pop-up slide on the base.  OBR allows almost anything. lol.

[Jocko]

You, sir, are correct. I knew it was a judge. Didn't remember which one.

As someone once said about pornography, "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

    I believe it was Supreme Court Justice Stewart Potter...

[VolUmp]

FED   ONLY FED   AND NOTHING BUT FED

 

Last year I had this sitch.  If anyone sees it any differently than I do, I'm all ears.

 

Bottom of 7.  Score tied.  1 out.  R3.  Bloop to shallow right field.

F4 goes back and makes an ESPN over-shoulder-grab.

R3 tags and tries to score.

F4 slipped, gathered himself, recovered way too late, threw home.

Catcher stood on top of the plate, and relaxed as he saw the throw was late.

R3 slid hard through the plate and through the catcher who performed a perfect unintended sideways aeriel ... (almost stuck the landing.)

 

Game over, offense runs out to mob R3.

Catcher gets up and takes two steps toward R3, thinks better of it, and does a 180.

 

I stepped between just make sure he wasn't thinking of doing another 180, and I just stared him back to the bench.

DC comes walking out with his hands high in the air demanding that I call R3 out for MC and start a new inning.

 

I think I said, "You're kidding ..." which was not exactly professional, but it was the last thing I expected.

I said, "Coach, he slid hard right at the plate."

DC replied, "There was no play ... he didn't even need to slide."

I said, "Really? Then why was the catcher standing on the plate?"

He replied, "Anyway, you gotta call MC ... he slid THROUGH the bag ... that's a rule."

I said, "Coach, first off, you always slide on that play, and you don't look at the ball to know whether there is a play.

Secondly, sliding 'through' the bag doesn't apply to the plate.  That rule is primarily written for 2nd base."

 

He gabbed for another few seconds and walked away.

 

Now ... my question ... does anyone disagree that the rule against sliding "through" the base does not apply to home plate? 

(Unless, of course, it is obvious that the player is "seeking" contact on the far side of the plate?)

[johnnyg08]

In FED ball they have to slide to the base.  

 

If the MC occurs after he's safe, you can count the run, then EJ

[johnnyg08]

b. does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases; or

1. A runner may slide in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making ­contact or altering the play of the fielder.

2. Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2) Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal.

[johnnyg08]

2-32-1

ART. 1 . . . A legal slide can be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, he must slide within reach of the base with either a hand or a foot. A runner may slide or run in a direction away from the ­fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder (8-4-2b).