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LMSANS

Play of the week 1/7

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I'm hoping to get some interest going with the softball area, so I'm going to dig out some old plays and see if we can generate a discussion.

FP - F1 continuously looks into the stands and takes pitching signals from her father. Is that illegal?

These plays will come from other sources like this one is from the 12/07 issue of Referee magazine.

Edited by LMSANS
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This can be common but it is illegal... sorry I dont have a rule to refer to handy. In ASA and Fed the rule is pretty much the same.

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When you get near your rule book, let me know what rule you're referring to.

:meditation:

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I would say, being uneducated, that it may be illegal but I certainly would leave it alone. Now if I was the manager I might not be happy.

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I haven't seen a SB rule book but I would say, on paper, this would be illegal. The problem that I see with this is how incredibly hard it would be to prove. Pitcher says that she is taking signs from the catcher unless the BU sees it happening blatantly in front of him/her.

Just my thoughts.

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As long as the pitcher doesn't quick pitch there is nothing in the rules stating where they can get there signs. Last year at the state meeting I asked Kyle Mcneeley sp? about this and that is what he told me. But they have to be on the rubber to take the signs. As long as they don't delay the game I could care less. Usually the HC is giving the signs to the catcher. But if the signs are coming from the stands its alittle easier for the offense to pick up. Its bush but its not illegal to capture the defenses signs from the offense.

On the other hand how are you gonna make a pitcher not look into the stands?

By the way this is baseball but I imagine it would be true for SB.

Allan

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As long as the pitcher doesn't quick pitch there is nothing in the rules stating where they can get there signs. Last year at the state meeting I asked Kyle Mcneeley sp? about this and that is what he told me. But they have to be on the rubber to take the signs. As long as they don't delay the game I could care less. Usually the HC is giving the signs to the catcher. But if the signs are coming from the stands its alittle easier for the offense to pick up. Its bush but its not illegal to capture the defenses signs from the offense.

On the other hand how are you gonna make a pitcher not look into the stands?

By the way this is baseball but I imagine it would be true for SB.

Allan

Great answer Allen, at least what I'd say for baseball. Having no Idea of softball rules I've declined to comment.

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We're getting close.:meditation:

It sure would be nice to get some softball experience on this. My plan is to post the play in the middle of the week and then give the "book" answer after the weekend.

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I talked to a friend that did ASA and LL. He is since medically retired. He said that there used to be a rule against it but there isn't one anymore. Just as long as the Pitcher doesn't step on the rubber and quickly pitch. He did say its a "don't do that" for taking signs off the rubber. In softball its a ball for a quick pitch.

I hope this helps.

Edited by AllanA

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We're getting close.:clap:

It sure would be nice to get some softball experience on this. My plan is to post the play in the middle of the week and then give the "book" answer after the weekend.

Is it the weekend yet?

ASA- Rules Supplememt 40 (B).

Signal. ...The actual signal may be taken from the catcher, the dugout, or any other location.

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So if it is not illegal that must make it legal... right? If it is legal then there would be rule referances to this situation. Signs can be taken from catcher, dougout or any other location refers to participants in the contest not fans. It would be very difficult to make the case that an adult giving signals from the stands is not acting like a coach and could be put in the dugout area. It would also be interesting if this was legal to see how umpires would make sure that the legal dad giving signs was given the proper position...

Bottom line it is not legal or illegal... but we IMO have a obligation to deal with things not addressed in rule books that may effect play on the field.

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So if it is not illegal that must make it legal... right? If it is legal then there would be rule referances to this situation. Signs can be taken from catcher, dougout or any other location refers to participants in the contest not fans. It would be very difficult to make the case that an adult giving signals from the stands is not acting like a coach and could be put in the dugout area. It would also be interesting if this was legal to see how umpires would make sure that the legal dad giving signs was given the proper position...

Bottom line it is not legal or illegal... but we IMO have a obligation to deal with things not addressed in rule books that may effect play on the field.

How does it refer to participants? I can't find that?

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Mr Knight, I respectfully disagree with the premise that "If it is legal then there would be rule referances to this situation." The rule book(s) can't possibly encompass every situation one might encounter on the field.

"we IMO have a obligation to deal with things not addressed in rule books that may effect play on the field"

It is in the rule book. I sited it chapter and verse.

-There certainly might be something to this that I'm missing, but I don't see anything in the 'rules supplement' statement that restricts the pitcher to taking signals from only those participants on the field. I should think, however that unless the parent is in some sort of telepathic communication with the HC, things could easily get a little complicated. Does the catcher know what's coming? I just don't see the practicality of having signals come in from section 8 row 16 seat 12.

z

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Guys... take it easy on me I can be real sensitive.

I asked this question several years ago at an ASA event. "What other locations may a pitcher take a sign from for a pitch"... Mr Butler said the intent of the rule was to allow other participant ie:3rd baseman or shortstop to give signals to the pitchers.

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Guys... take it easy on me I can be real sensitive.

Jim, if you look at the times of 2 of the response posts, you'll notice they were about on top of each other. I was writing as LM was submitting- anyway, no intent to gang up on ya. First round's on me next time you're in Boston!

~Mike

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As a baseball guy, this situation comes up fro time to time. Like softball there is nothing that says you can't get signs from the stands, but my question was always, what happens to the poor catcher. He needs to know what's coming and that can't happen if it comes from behind him.

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I was doing a 5A Varsity game and after about 3 pitchers the catcher sez " I have no idea whats coming blue". I tried to get real SMALL.

:GL:

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FP - F1 continuously looks into the stands and takes pitching signals from her father. Is that illegal?

No. As long as she pauses before the start of her delivery, and the rest of her mechanics are legal during the pitch, I've got nothing.

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I'm hoping to get some interest going with the softball area, so I'm going to dig out some old plays and see if we can generate a discussion.

FP - F1 continuously looks into the stands and takes pitching signals from her father. Is that illegal?

These plays will come from other sources like this one is from the 12/07 issue of Referee magazine.

:cheers:

"Ruling: No. F1 must take or simulate taking a signal from the rubber. The intent of that rule is not to ensure that the pitcher takes a signal but that there is a mandated brief pause so the pitcher doesn't walk onto the pitcher's plate and quick-pitch the batter. Curiously, softball rules do not otherwise specifically penalize the premeditated, unsporting, overt and dangerous quick pitch. It is legal for F1 to receive signals from the stands providing no part of the pitching rule is compromised. Pitchers and catchers often take signs from the dugout and occasionally from the stands. All Codes agree that the practice is legal."

ASA 6-1D While on the pitcher's plate, the pitcher shall take the signal or appear to take a signal with the hands separated. The ball must remain in either the glove or pitching hand.

NFHS 6-1-1b ...While in this position, the pitcher shall take (or simulate taking) a signal from the catcher.

NCAA 10-2b

USSSA-FP 7-1C

The ruling is straight from the the Referee magazine Caseplays (I don't have NCAA or USSSA rule books to pull quotes from.)

It is interesting that NFHS specifies the catcher. In the casebook, 6.1.1 SITUATION E: F1 steps onto the pitcher's plate and looks to her coach in the dugout for a signal. RULING: This is legal, provided she at least gives the appearance that she has taken a signal from F2.

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