WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE???

[XUIC]

Wanted to get your take so chime in:

Sitation

R1, R2, 1 Out, 3-Man Crew, Little League Baseball Game.

BR Hits a sharp ground ball to F3.

F3 fields the ball and steps on 1B.

U1 Calls BR out on the force.

F3 throws to F6 standing on 2B.

F6 never tags R1 out.

U1 Calls R1 out on the force.

F6 Tosses the ball to the mound and defensive team jogs to their dugout.

R1 and R2 start to walk to their dugout (3B-side) but do not leave the field of play.

Offensive coaches start yelling at players to run back to their bases and keep going.

R2 touches 3B, then HP and R1 touches 2B, then 3B, then HP.

What's the call?

[carolinablue]

Obviously R1 was not out on the force because it was removed. I assume there was no tag of R1 either so I'm not going to let 2 runs score on an umpire screw up. I would put R2 on 3B and R1 on 2B which is most likely what would have happened absent the errant out call. 2 outs, play ball, and hope there are no ejections.

[BRUMP]

Obviously R1 was not out on the force because it was removed. I assume there was no tag of R1 either so I'm not going to let 2 runs score on an umpire screw up. I would put R2 on 3B and R1 on 2B which is most likely what would have happened absent the errant out call. 2 outs, play ball, and hope there are no ejections.

Same I think that's the way I'd handle it. Although I'd hope I never screw up that badly but it happens.

[JaxRolo]

I agree place the runners. Then eat crow from both coaches.

[grayhawk]

I concur. Can't wait to hear how this one ended.

[BRUMP]

Was this a sectional or state game?? You almost never see a 3 man crew in any level below this.

[Typhoon]

I pulled something almost as boneheaded. It was one of those innings that last forever. It was about 95 in the shade and this was my 6th game of the day. I was BU, and 2nd baseman asked how many out I said two. In fact there was only one out. Next batter hits a line drive to 2B, it's caught and he rolls ball to pitchers mound, and pitcher heads to dugout with rest of team. R3 takes off and scores and so does R2. We ended up putting runners back. No one argued too much, maybe because game was kind of one sided at that point. However since that time if I am asked how many out, or the count I always say the word "unofficially" after I give it, and if they want it official ask the PU.

Tony

[XUIC]

Not Sectional or State, just 3 newer District Umpires (3, 2 and 1 years of experience on district staff) taking an opportunity to work 3-Man at a Fall Ball game.

It didn't end well...

R2 and R1 allowed to advance. 2 Outs, 2 Runs, Defense made to take the field and record a proper 3rd Out.

UIC was at the field, but standing in the 3B Coach's Box.

Player Agent at the field, but standing in the 1B Coach's Box.

Divisional Coordinator at the field but his son was F6 (and an 11U Travel Ball kid) who apparently knew he should have tagged the runner, but decided to just go with the flow and toss the ball to the mound.

League President at the field but her son was the pitcher of record when the play happened.

What should have been done in my opinion:

R1 and R2 returned to 1B and 2B as those were the last bases they legally earned. 2 Outs, 0 Runs, Defense returned to field to record a proper 3rd Out.

PU, having taken enough abuse from the fans, called both teams into the dugouts and halted play until the most aggressive fan was removed from the premises.

Score at time of play was 6-3. Erroneous runs awarded made it 8-3. Game ended 8-3.

Having not scored enough runs to tie the original score, the "victimized" team decided to file a formal protest anyway.

Fun Times Boys... Fun Times!

If you watch this, you may understand how the crew (as it made the rounds a while ago) thought it appropriate to allow the runs.

LINK

[grayhawk]

What a cluster. First, it's FALL BALL!! This is a time to teach the game, develop the kids, chill and have fun. Not sure about in your area, but where I am from, there ain't no trophies in fall ball. Let me get this straight - a fan had to be removed in a fall ball game? I'm trying to let that sink in for a minute... Second, I'm not sure how the umpires justified their final ruling because it was U1 that put the defense at a disadvantage by making an incorrect call. All they have to do is think to themselves, "What is the most likely result of this play with a correct 'Safe! No tag!' call at second?"

Also, shouldn't U3 have made the call at second? With R1 and R2, U1 should have been in the A position and U3 in the C position.

[noumpere]

What does the video at the end have to do with the play? I find it very annoying.

[Jocko]

R3, R2, 2 outs

[UMP45]

WHY?

[UMP45]

Obviously R1 was not out on the force because it was removed. I assume there was no tag of R1 either so I'm not going to let 2 runs score on an umpire screw up. I would put R2 on 3B and R1 on 2B which is most likely what would have happened absent the errant out call. 2 outs, play ball, and hope there are no ejections.

Where was the umpire screw up? Re read and saw it. What rule do we use to correct?

[Jocko]

How 'bout it, Rainman?

[carolinablue]

How about the umpire incorrectly called a runner out on a force play when there was no force play active.

Rule 2.00 (Force Play) Comment: Confusion regarding this play is removed by

remembering that frequently the “force†situation is removed during the play. Example: Man on

first, one out, ball hit sharply to first baseman who touches the bag and batter-runner is out. The force

is removed at that moment and runner advancing to second must be tagged.

XUIC, I'm not sure why you say you would place the runners on 1B and 2B, instead of 2B and 3B. It's not like you have to judge what would have happened here, you can see what did happen the only problem is U1 incorrectly applied a rule. Apparently the defense screwed up too because they also thought it was a force play. This is baseball 101, most teams work on this play regularly.

[UMP45]

Try again.

[Rich Ives]

There is no rule that allows a fix. So you revert to 9.01(c ) if you feel the need.

There is some level of responsibility on the players. Here os an example from 9.02:

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate

umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of

being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call

is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.

In the play at hand one set of coaches and a bunch of others obviously knew what was going on. I think I'd let the play stand and use it to teach the players involved that you have to be aware and react accordingly and teach ALL players and umpires about the force play rules.

[mstaylor]

In OBR it is a 9.01c fix. In HS there is a section that says the umpires can't disadvantage a team. I am not near my books to get an exact cite.

[Jocko]

There is no rule that allows a fix. So you revert to 9.01(c ) if you feel the need.

There is some level of responsibility on the players. Here os an example from 9.02:

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate

umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of

being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call

is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.

In the play at hand one set of coaches and a bunch of others obviously knew what was going on. I think I'd let the play stand and use it to teach the players involved that you have to be aware and react accordingly and teach ALL players and umpires about the force play rules.

A couple of what ifs (yeah, I know, shut up):

WHAT IF

1. You let the play stand. 2 outs, 2 runs score on the play, nobody on

2. EITHER HC wants to file a protest for missed rule (force/no force)

[JaxRolo]

There is no rule that allows a fix. So you revert to 9.01(c ) if you feel the need.

There is some level of responsibility on the players. Here os an example from 9.02:

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate

umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of

being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call

is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.

In the play at hand one set of coaches and a bunch of others obviously knew what was going on. I think I'd let the play stand and use it to teach the players involved that you have to be aware and react accordingly and teach ALL players and umpires about the force play rules.

A couple of what ifs (yeah, I know, shut up):

WHAT IF

1. You let the play stand. 2 outs, 2 runs score on the play, nobody on

2. EITHER HC wants to file a protest for missed rule (force/no force)

Then the decision is out of your hands. Let someone else decide!

[Rich Ives]

There is no rule that allows a fix. So you revert to 9.01(c ) if you feel the need.

There is some level of responsibility on the players. Here os an example from 9.02:

Baserunners must be alert to the possibility that the base umpire on appeal from the plate

umpire may reverse the call of a ball to the call of a strike, in which event the runner is in jeopardy of

being out by the catcher’s throw. Also, a catcher must be alert in a base stealing situation if a ball call

is reversed to a strike by the base umpire upon appeal from the plate umpire.

In the play at hand one set of coaches and a bunch of others obviously knew what was going on. I think I'd let the play stand and use it to teach the players involved that you have to be aware and react accordingly and teach ALL players and umpires about the force play rules.

A couple of what ifs (yeah, I know, shut up):

WHAT IF

1. You let the play stand. 2 outs, 2 runs score on the play, nobody on

2. EITHER HC wants to file a protest for missed rule (force/no force)

As a protet committee:

The OC won't protest because he got two runs "free". If he did I'd ask him "are you sure you want to give back two runs?" and allow him to withdraw it.

It's fall ball. I'd be sorely tempted to ask a protesting defensive HC that if he knew the rule why did he let his team run off the field.

Why is this different from having an F2 throw the ball into RF on an U3K whan the batter is already out but running. Don't we say the defense has to know the rules?

[Jocko]

FALL BALL. Nevermind.

[grayhawk]

Why is this different from having an F2 throw the ball into RF on an U3K whan the batter is already out but running. Don't we say the defense has to know the rules?

It's different because in the OP the umpire incorrectly called R1 out at second. He made a false declaration and put the defense at a disadvantage by doing so. In your example above, the umpire didn't make a mistake.

[Rich Ives]

Why is this different from having an F2 throw the ball into RF on an U3K whan the batter is already out but running. Don't we say the defense has to know the rules?

It's different because in the OP the umpire incorrectly called R1 out at second. He made a false declaration and put the defense at a disadvantage by doing so. In your example above, the umpire didn't make a mistake.

You missed the point - the players should know better.

And it depends on your association but on an U3K for most places if he didn't declare"batter's out" he did make a mistake.

[carolinablue]

Forget it's fall ball for a minute and apply it to a normal game situation. This should never make it beyond the field in a protest situation. A rule was misapplied and needs to be corrected. I'm all for helping kids learn but not when it's because me or my partner had a massive brain fart.

Now youv'e went and made me look at the rules, dang you.

( B) If there is reasonable doubt that any umpire’s decision may be in conflict with the

rules, the manager may appeal the decision and ask that a correct ruling be made.

Such appeal shall be made only to the umpire who made the protested decision.

So, I guess technically, the coach would have to appeal to U1 and then the correct ruling could be made. If he's dumb enough not to appeal then let the play stand if that's what you want to do. If I called it, I would correct it appeal or not.