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Swing on IBB - strike?

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Why make an issue out of a non issue, call the strike, carry on.

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Not a good enough reason to throw the pitches, IMO.

I just don't get this. Why isn't it a good enough reason to throw pitches? For whatever reason, the defense doesn't want to deal with the batter. Fine. But why give the defense a free pass? What if the offense wants it's turn at bat to be over? Would you think they can just say "We're taking the out."? That makes as much sense as allowing the defense to decalre an IBB without throwing the pitches.

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Works fine in NFHS baseball and most amateur summer leagues I work. Waste of time 99% of the time.

(Although I miss imitating the old-time umpires who did the IBB without a mask.)

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Works fine in NFHS baseball and most amateur summer leagues I work. Waste of time 99% of the time.

But it's not (gasp) REAL baseball. :)

Neither is baseball with closed bases 60' apart. :D

Frankly, I like many of the FED rules. I'm OK with killing a balk immediately, too. I know that's blasphemous to many, but I'm just being honest.

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I think the FED Rule is right on a balk. If playing under OBR and you hear "that's a balk", you'd be nuts to throw the pitch. Nothing good could come out of it for the defense. Just take the penalty.

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Works fine in NFHS baseball and most amateur summer leagues I work. Waste of time 99% of the time.

But it's not (gasp) REAL baseball. :)

Neither is baseball with closed bases 60' apart. :D

Frankly, I like many of the FED rules. I'm OK with killing a balk immediately, too. I know that's blasphemous to many, but I'm just being honest.

I'm with you on many things but I like keeping it live on a balk. I also like A/B obstructions much to Pete's chagrin.

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I know this is an old thread, but after being pointed here from the 2013 LLWS thread, and then reading 8 pages of posts,  I can't just let it go without commenting.

Going back to the OP and the description given, the rule is actually quite clear:

 

A STRIKE is a legal pitch which meets any of these conditions -
(a) Is struck at by the batter and missed;

 

condensed:  "A STRIKE is a legal pitch which is struck at by the batter and missed"

 

This definition is the reason why, unlike in softball, a baseball batter who squares to bunt does not have to pull his bat back on a ball for it to be called a ball, and why on check-swing appeals, the judgement is weather the batter struck at the ball (more oftenly described as "attempted to hit"). So to be purely technical about it, based on the description of the situation in the OP, it is a ball. IBB pitches are generally head-high and a yard or so outside. If a batter simply brings his bat across the plate at knee hight, making no attempt to get his bat anywhere close to the ball or even pointing it at the path of the ball, he is not STIKING AT and missing the ball, and the pitch should be, by rule, called a ball.

 

I can see why so many people say it's a no-brainer strike, and were I to encounter this in a game, I'd be much more inclined to call a strike than a ball - afterall, "he swung the bat". In fact, on pretty much any pitch that the batter swings and misses, I have a strike. Besides, as a volunteer, I don't get paid enough to deal with the 5h!tstorm and EJ's that would ensue upon calling a ball when the kid swung the bat.

 

 

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I know this is an old thread, but after being pointed here from the 2013 LLWS thread, and then reading 8 pages of posts,  I can't just let it go without commenting.

Going back to the OP and the description given, the rule is actually quite clear:

 

A STRIKE is a legal pitch which meets any of these conditions -

(a) Is struck at by the batter and missed;

 

condensed:  "A STRIKE is a legal pitch which is struck at by the batter and missed"

 

This definition is the reason why, unlike in softball, a baseball batter who squares to bunt does not have to pull his bat back on a ball for it to be called a ball, and why on check-swing appeals, the judgement is weather the batter struck at the ball (more oftenly described as "attempted to hit"). So to be purely technical about it, based on the description of the situation in the OP, it is a ball. IBB pitches are generally head-high and a yard or so outside. If a batter simply brings his bat across the plate at knee hight, making no attempt to get his bat anywhere close to the ball or even pointing it at the path of the ball, he is not STIKING AT and missing the ball, and the pitch should be, by rule, called a ball.

 

I can see why so many people say it's a no-brainer strike, and were I to encounter this in a game, I'd be much more inclined to call a strike than a ball - afterall, "he swung the bat". In fact, on pretty much any pitch that the batter swings and misses, I have a strike. Besides, as a volunteer, I don't get paid enough to deal with the 5h!tstorm and EJ's that would ensue upon calling a ball when the kid swung the bat.

 

So just how close to the ball does the batter have to get the bat to get a strike call?  If he gets fooled and misses a curve by two feet is that a ball because it wasn't close enough?

 

 If a batter simply brings his bat across the plate at knee height, making no attempt to get his bat anywhere close to the ball . . .

 

That's not how it's done so why bring it up?

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I know this is an old thread, but after being pointed here from the 2013 LLWS thread, and then reading 8 pages of posts,  I can't just let it go without commenting.

Going back to the OP and the description given, the rule is actually quite clear:

 

A STRIKE is a legal pitch which meets any of these conditions -

(a) Is struck at by the batter and missed;

 

condensed:  "A STRIKE is a legal pitch which is struck at by the batter and missed"

 

This definition is the reason why, unlike in softball, a baseball batter who squares to bunt does not have to pull his bat back on a ball for it to be called a ball, and why on check-swing appeals, the judgement is weather the batter struck at the ball (more oftenly described as "attempted to hit"). So to be purely technical about it, based on the description of the situation in the OP, it is a ball. IBB pitches are generally head-high and a yard or so outside. If a batter simply brings his bat across the plate at knee hight, making no attempt to get his bat anywhere close to the ball or even pointing it at the path of the ball, he is not STIKING AT and missing the ball, and the pitch should be, by rule, called a ball.

 

I can see why so many people say it's a no-brainer strike, and were I to encounter this in a game, I'd be much more inclined to call a strike than a ball - afterall, "he swung the bat". In fact, on pretty much any pitch that the batter swings and misses, I have a strike. Besides, as a volunteer, I don't get paid enough to deal with the 5h!tstorm and EJ's that would ensue upon calling a ball when the kid swung the bat.

 

So just how close to the ball does the batter have to get the bat to get a strike call?  If he gets fooled and misses a curve by two feet is that a ball because it wasn't close enough?

 

 If a batter simply brings his bat across the plate at knee height, making no attempt to get his bat anywhere close to the ball . . .

 

That's not how it's done so why bring it up?

 

 

I think he brought it up because that's exactly what happened in the game I was observing that was the reason for my OP.  It really doesn't matter anymore because Little League ruled on this last year (this was a LL game, so they were the relevant authority for this thread).  Their ruling was that it's up to the judgement of the umpire, which was one side of the debate all along.  The rules do not require a strike to be called, though it's probably the prudent thing to do.

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Bottom of the ninth inning, score tied, 0-2 count. The next pitch is in the dirt and gets away from the catcher. Recognizing that he could easily reach first base on an uncaught third strike, the batter "swings" at the pitch with no real attempt to hit it. In this situation, the umpire should not allow this. Batter remains at bat with a 1-2 count.

Is the ball being no longer in flight the defining difference for you?

 

That's the way I interpret it. The op the ball was still in flight. The pass ball, in the dirt, the ball is no longer in flight ( a pitch).

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Bottom of the ninth inning, score tied, 0-2 count. The next pitch is in the dirt and gets away from the catcher. Recognizing that he could easily reach first base on an uncaught third strike, the batter "swings" at the pitch with no real attempt to hit it. In this situation, the umpire should not allow this. Batter remains at bat with a 1-2 count.

Is the ball being no longer in flight the defining difference for you?

 

That's the way I interpret it. The op the ball was still in flight. The pass ball, in the dirt, the ball is no longer in flight ( a pitch).

 

 

You can hit a bounced pitch.  If you are hit by a bounced pitch it's a HBP.  So you can swing at a strike 3 in the dirt and attempt to go to 1B.  Happens a lot of you watch enough games.

 

STOP MAKING THINGS UP TO STOP A PLAY JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE RESULT!!!

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You can hit a bounced pitch.  If you are hit by a bounced pitch it's a HBP.  So you can swing at a strike 3 in the dirt and attempt to go to 1B.  Happens a lot of you watch enough games.

 

STOP MAKING THINGS UP TO STOP A PLAY JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE RESULT!!!

I've seen enough games to see this done. Sometimes B's late attempt to strike at the pitch is believable, other times not.

 

When not, it is just an attempt to bambozzle the umpire. And when they don't get away with it, the rats cry.

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You can hit a bounced pitch.  If you are hit by a bounced pitch it's a HBP.  So you can swing at a strike 3 in the dirt and attempt to go to 1B.  Happens a lot of you watch enough games.

 

STOP MAKING THINGS UP TO STOP A PLAY JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE RESULT!!!

 

 

I don't think anybody is doing that.  The question is, what event demarks the end of the period when a batter may "strike at" a pitch?  I think you make a good point about the bounce; the ball touching the ground can't be that event.

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I think if the PU is doing his job on a dirt pitch that gets by the catcher as presented in previous posts (and watching the ball as it goes towards the backstop), you lose the ability to see the swing as you follow the ball behind F2.  I'd say that's when the pitch can no longer be swung at since I can't see said swing.  If I see it, I will call it.  If the batter doesn't want a swinging strike called, he should leave the bat on his shoulder, plain and simple.

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You know what your asking for? The DC salls for the IBB. The OC tells the batter to swing at ball 4. So, the pitcher does the only thing he can do - he drills the batter. ...Just "gamesmanship"?

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Bottom of the ninth inning, score tied, 0-2 count. The next pitch is in the dirt and gets away from the catcher. Recognizing that he could easily reach first base on an uncaught third strike, the batter "swings" at the pitch with no real attempt to hit it. In this situation, the umpire should not allow this. Batter remains at bat with a 1-2 count.

Is the ball being no longer in flight the defining difference for you?

 

That's the way I interpret it. The op the ball was still in flight. The pass ball, in the dirt, the ball is no longer in flight ( a pitch).

 

 

You can hit a bounced pitch.  If you are hit by a bounced pitch it's a HBP.  So you can swing at a strike 3 in the dirt and attempt to go to 1B.  Happens a lot of you watch enough games.

 

STOP MAKING THINGS UP TO STOP A PLAY JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE RESULT!!!

 

I know what I was saying just didn't say it right pencil neck! I agree with the umpschool ruling. In the op I would have a strike.

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The Little League rule book does not use the word “swing†in its definition of a strike (nor does the OBR). But the word is used three other times in the definitions that appear in Rule 2.00. Here they are:

 

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter. (NOTE: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.†If such a pitch touches the batter, the batter shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch and misses, it is a strike. Major/Intermediate (50-70Division/ Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball: If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05(b) and 6.09(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if the batter hit the ball in flight.)

 

IN FLIGHT …Majors/Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League—If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught for the purpose of Rule 6.05(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if the ball was hit in flight.

 

The STRIKE ZONE is that space over home plate which is between the batter’s armpits and the top of the knees when the batter assumes a natural stance. The umpire shall determine the strike zone according to the batter’s usual stance when that batter swings at a pitch.

 

And let’s see what other verbs are used in the rule book to describe the action of the batter fulfilling his raison d’etre:

 

5.03 – The pitcher shall deliver the pitch to the batter who may elect to strike the ball, or who may not offer at it, as such batter chooses.

 

It would appear that these verbs are used interchangeably in the rule book:

 

Strike at = swing = offer = strike (in addition to hit, bunt, and attempt)

 

And the definition of “Strike†is missing two other kinds of strikes. See rules 6.02c and 6.05(m).

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The Little League rule book does not use the word “swing†in its definition of a strike (nor does the OBR). But the word is used three other times in the definitions that appear in Rule 2.00. Here they are:

 

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter. (NOTE: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.†If such a pitch touches the batter, the batter shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch and misses, it is a strike. Major/Intermediate (50-70Division/ Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball: If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05(b) and 6.09(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if the batter hit the ball in flight.)

 

IN FLIGHT …Majors/Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League—If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught for the purpose of Rule 6.05(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if the ball was hit in flight.

 

The STRIKE ZONE is that space over home plate which is between the batter’s armpits and the top of the knees when the batter assumes a natural stance. The umpire shall determine the strike zone according to the batter’s usual stance when that batter swings at a pitch.

 

And let’s see what other verbs are used in the rule book to describe the action of the batter fulfilling his raison d’etre:

 

5.03 – The pitcher shall deliver the pitch to the batter who may elect to strike the ball, or who may not offer at it, as such batter chooses.

 

It would appear that these verbs are used interchangeably in the rule book:

 

Strike at = swing = offer = strike (in addition to hit, bunt, and attempt)

 

And the definition of “Strike†is missing two other kinds of strikes. See rules 6.02c and 6.05(m).

 

 

You're changing the meaning by removing the word "at."  It says swings at, which is basically the same as strike at. The argument being made in this thread is that a swing is not necessarily a case of "striking at" or "swinging at" the pitch.

 

If the batter takes a regular waist high swing at an IBB pitch that's way up and away, the rules appear to support the judgment that he didn't "strike at" the pitch, so you could call it a ball. It would be like a batter spinning himself to avoid being hit by a pitch. The bat could go all the way around over the plate without leaving his shoulder. That's not an attempt at the ball, and isn't a strike, even though he "swung."

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The Little League rule book does not use the word “swing†in its definition of a strike (nor does the OBR). But the word is used three other times in the definitions that appear in Rule 2.00. Here they are:

 

A BALL is a pitch which does not enter the strike zone in flight and is not struck at by the batter. (NOTE: If the pitch touches the ground and bounces through the strike zone it is a “ball.†If such a pitch touches the batter, the batter shall be awarded first base. If the batter swings at such a pitch and misses, it is a strike. Major/Intermediate (50-70Division/ Junior/Senior/Big League Baseball: If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught, for the purposes of Rule 6.05(b) and 6.09(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if the batter hit the ball in flight.)

 

IN FLIGHT …Majors/Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior/Big League—If the batter swings at such a pitch after two strikes, the ball cannot be caught for the purpose of Rule 6.05(b). If the batter hits such a pitch, the ensuing action shall be the same as if the ball was hit in flight.

 

The STRIKE ZONE is that space over home plate which is between the batter’s armpits and the top of the knees when the batter assumes a natural stance. The umpire shall determine the strike zone according to the batter’s usual stance when that batter swings at a pitch.

 

And let’s see what other verbs are used in the rule book to describe the action of the batter fulfilling his raison d’etre:

 

5.03 – The pitcher shall deliver the pitch to the batter who may elect to strike the ball, or who may not offer at it, as such batter chooses.

 

It would appear that these verbs are used interchangeably in the rule book:

 

Strike at = swing = offer = strike (in addition to hit, bunt, and attempt)

 

And the definition of “Strike†is missing two other kinds of strikes. See rules 6.02c and 6.05(m).

 

 

You're changing the meaning by removing the word "at."  It says swings at, which is basically the same as strike at. The argument being made in this thread is that a swing is not necessarily a case of "striking at" or "swinging at" the pitch.

 

If the batter takes a regular waist high swing at an IBB pitch that's way up and away, the rules appear to support the judgment that he didn't "strike at" the pitch, so you could call it a ball. It would be like a batter spinning himself to avoid being hit by a pitch. The bat could go all the way around over the plate without leaving his shoulder. That's not an attempt at the ball, and isn't a strike, even though he "swung."

 

Rule quote please.

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How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

 

:P

 

I'm still calling it a strike. But I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended in this lengthy thread. After rereading my previous posts, I came across assholish. Not my intent. 

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How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

 

:P

 

I'm still calling it a strike. But I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended in this lengthy thread. After rereading my previous posts, I came across assholish. Not my intent. 

 

Those therapy sessions have really paid off. :)

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How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

 

:P

 

I'm still calling it a strike. But I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended in this lengthy thread. After rereading my previous posts, I came across assholish. Not my intent.

 

Those therapy sessions have really paid off. :):kissass: ,,!,, :P

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How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

:P

I'm still calling it a strike. But I would like to apologize to anyone I might have offended in this lengthy thread. After rereading my previous posts, I came across assholish. Not my intent.

You sure it wasnt your intent at the time?

talk about resurrecting a thread!

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