Ejection or Warning

[umpire_scott]

I had two cases today where I considered ejecting but warned instead. I want your take on what you would have done and any issue you have with how I handled it.

Case #1 - I call OBS on the first baseman for colliding with a runner that is rounding first base. Based on FED rules it's a one base minimum award as I understand it so he gets second base. It does not matter whether I think he would have achieved that base or not. When I award second base the DC calls time and comes out of the dugout and as he's halfway to me the first words out of his mouth are "that's bullSH*#". I almost ran him right there, but instead stopped him in his tracks and told him that any more language like that and he would be ejected. I told him I had no problem discussing the call, but he could not talk like that. He refrained from any more language. Should the first comment been an auto-eject?

Case #2 - Pitcher throw a slow curve on an 0-2 count. It just misses outside as it never quite made it to the edge of the plate in it's break. It was very close though. Even after calling it a ball I thought to myself that I could have given it to him. In MLB no way it's a strike, but in 16U lower level, it clearly could have been. The pitcher then goes back to the mound and before taking the rubber motions with his hands of some nature. I call time and ask him what he's doing. He points down the pitching rubber and says "here's the plate and the pitch was right here". I say "you cannot argue balls and strikes, if I see it again you will be ejected". Once again too lenient? Should I have run him for not only arguing the call, but doing it in such a demonstrative way?

[Jocko]

Case 1) depends on how loud he said it. If noone can hear him but me, I let em say whatever as long as they don't say the magic word. "YOU"

Case 2) you shouldn't engage the pitcher directly. Next time tell F2 to call time and go tell F1 to knock it off.

[mjr_2013]

Case 1 - What is the age level and volume? If it is 10U, I'm ejecting. If I can hear, a kid can hear, and that is a no-no... If it is 16U, I'll be more leinent, but if he screams it so the whole crowd hears, he is showing me up, and he is gone.

Case 2 - I have an ejection. Pointing and demonstrating is an auto EJ, same if a batter had drawn a line with their bat.

[carolinablue]

name='mjr_2013' timestamp='1342412583' post='117081']

Case 2 - I have an ejection. Pointing and demonstrating is an auto EJ, same if a batter had drawn a line with their bat.

Agreed but as Trout pointed out, the demonstration may have been avoided by sending F2 out first to tell him to knock it off. If he continues after that then a personal visit might be in order. I don't think I would get the coach involved because he can see what's going on, he should handle it without a request from me.

[mjr_2013]

name='mjr_2013' timestamp='1342412583' post='117081']

Case 2 - I have an ejection. Pointing and demonstrating is an auto EJ, same if a batter had drawn a line with their bat.

Agreed but as Trout pointed out, the demonstration may have been avoided by sending F2 out first to tell him to knock it off. If he continues after that then a personal visit might be in order. I don't think I would get the coach involved because he can see what's going on, he should handle it without a request from me.

WTF, I can't get the underlined text to go off ?

In the future, I would agree. Avoid the SH*#storm by sending F2 out... In his situation though, Scott didn't... The F1 had a chance to knock it off and just reply "nothing" or "sorry" to PU, he didn't and had the nerve to announce loudly enough that the pitch missed "this much", I would say that the ejection is needed.

It is an ejection you could have avoided though by sending out F2, so just learn from the situation.

Try highlighting the text and pressing Ctrl+U. That is what I do.

[renegadewolf]

Sitch 1 you handled fine enough in my humble opinion, but your sitch #2 you opened the door on that one. Don't ask a question and get upset when they answer you in a manner you don't like. In some cases people eject themselves, in this case you are causing the ejection. Avoid this whenever possible (which is pretty much always) perception goes a long way in managing a game. to even appear to "bait" the pitcher then toss him does no favors for you or your partner.

[RichMSN]

It's hard to eject him on #2 - if you're going to ask a question that doesn't need to be asked, you may not like the result.

You *know* why he's gesturing - he didn't like that you didn't call the pitch a strike. This wouldn't even trip my Spidey senses unless he did it multiple times or he was especially over the line when he did it.

If you eject him in #2, you've essentially baited him into an ejection.

[UmpJM]

Case #1: (To coach) Tom, Yeah I think that rule is bullSH*# too. But, we're playing under Fed today, and that's the rule. You know, if your 1st baseman would just stay out of the runner's way when he's not fielding like he's supposed to, then Neither of us would have to put up with this bullSH*#.

Case #2: (To catcher). Timmy, You have time. Would you please go talk to your pitcher and let him know that I had that pitch breaking a little early, but I may have missed it. Also, let him know that I will not tolerate any further histrionics if he doesn't like my call. Thank you.

JM

[umpire_scott]

name='mjr_2013' timestamp='1342412583' post='117081']

Case 2 - I have an ejection. Pointing and demonstrating is an auto EJ, same if a batter had drawn a line with their bat.

Agreed but as Trout pointed out, the demonstration may have been avoided by sending F2 out first to tell him to knock it off. If he continues after that then a personal visit might be in order. I don't think I would get the coach involved because he can see what's going on, he should handle it without a request from me.

I need to clarify that the initial "motioning of his hands in some nature" was the demonstration. The second time simply included a verbal explanation of what he was meaning.

[umpire_scott]

Case #1: (To coach) Tom, Yeah I think that rule is bullSH*# too. But, we're playing under Fed today, and that's the rule. You know, if your 1st baseman would just stay out of the runner's way when he's not fielding like he's supposed to, then Neither of us would have to put up with this bullSH*#.

Case #2: (To catcher). Timmy, You have time. Would you please go talk to your pitcher and let him know that I had that pitch breaking a little early, but I may have missed it. Also, let him know that I will not tolerate any further histrionics if he doesn't like my call. Thank you.

JM

I love both of these responses. Now the trick is to be calm enough to deliver them and not let my anger at the initial reactions cloud my ability to handle the situations as deftly as this.

[mstaylor]

In one, it does depend on age level and volume. As to John's response, I have done a similar type thing except I say," It's a FED rule, if you don't like it call Indianapolis."

In two, either send the catcher out or simply go straight to telling him to knock it off. Avoid the Q&A, nothing will come of it.

[umpire_scott]

In one, it does depend on age level and volume. As to John's response, I have done a similar type thing except I say," It's a FED rule, if you don't like it call Indianapolis."

In two, either send the catcher out or simply go straight to telling him to knock it off. Avoid the Q&A, nothing will come of it.

So what if I tell him to knock it off and he says "I was just telling my catcher where I wanted him to set up". The Q and A was sort of my way of guarding against that type of response. I've had kids lie to me before and some of them are really good at it. I guess a good way of handling it would be to tell the catcher to go talk to his pitcher and if that gesture was directed towards me, he better knock it off. Or preface my warning to him with "If that was towards me. . .".

[Jocko]

In one, it does depend on age level and volume. As to John's response, I have done a similar type thing except I say," It's a FED rule, if you don't like it call Indianapolis."

In two, either send the catcher out or simply go straight to telling him to knock it off. Avoid the Q&A, nothing will come of it.

So what if I tell him to knock it off and he says "I was just telling my catcher where I wanted him to set up". The Q and A was sort of my way of guarding against that type of response. I've had kids lie to me before and some of them are really good at it. I guess a good way of handling it would be to tell the catcher to go talk to his pitcher and if that gesture was directed towards me, he better knock it off. Or preface my warning to him with "If that was towards me. . .".

no preface. No ifs. Catch, tell him to stow that s**t. Everyone knows at whom it was directed.

[Welpe]

So what if I tell him to knock it off and he says "I was just telling my catcher where I wanted him to set up".

So what, that doesn't even merit a response. Don't worry about the excuse he gives. Kids are great at giving excuses when they get caught with their hands in the cookie jar (well so are a lot of adults).

[mstaylor]

Either send the catcher or shut it down directly. If he tries to excuse himself hold your hand up and tell no more, just pitch. Coaches try the same crap, "I was just talking to my catcher." No, he is directing it to you thinly disguised as talking to his catcher. Shut it down, no big discussion, simply,"That's enough!"

[catsbackr]

1) Eject.

2) You asked the question, he gave you your answer. You got nothing. If he is being demonstrative, warn him via the catcher or eject him. If you do warn, issue a team warning and note it.

[NCAAump2]

My 2 cents...

1) 9 times out of 10 I'm going to eject in anything lower than HS.

2). Send out the catcher to tell the pitcher to knock it off, that's his warning. He keeps it up, send him packing early. You engaging in a conversation about it with the pitcher directly can easily make you look like the aggressor if the situation escalates.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

1) Eject.

2) You asked the question, he gave you your answer. You got nothing. If he is being demonstrative, warn him via the catcher or eject him. If you do warn, issue a team warning and note it.

A team warning for demonstrative behavior ?

[catsbackr]

Uh, what was the pitcher doing? Basically, arguing balls and strikes. Warning. Team warning takes care of it all, nothing else from the bench, nothing from the head coach, nothing else period.

I didn't realize I had to be so elementary, sorry.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

Uh, what was the pitcher doing? Basically, arguing balls and strikes. Warning. Team warning takes care of it all, nothing else from the bench, nothing from the head coach, nothing else period.

I didn't realize I had to be so elementary, sorry.

No need to be patronizing.I don't understand why a "team" warning. I guess we see it differently. I'm not calling you out on it, I've just never seen anyone issue a team warning for demonstrative actions. Demonstrating has always fallen into the category of showing up an umpire, to me, rather than arguing balls and strikes. YMMV.

[catsbackr]

If I, in this situation, warn the pitcher for balls and strikes, the head coach will ask what's going on or I'm going to tell him his pitcher has just been warned for balls and strikes. He will protests most of the time, then I issue the team warning. Shuts down any balls and strikes issues for the rest of the game. Most of my experience involving this practice comes from doing JC games. JC teams have the worst player attitudes as well as the worst coaches attitudes, IMO. It works for me.

[zm1283]

If I, in this situation, warn the pitcher for balls and strikes, the head coach will ask what's going on or I'm going to tell him his pitcher has just been warned for balls and strikes. He will protests most of the time, then I issue the team warning. Shuts down any balls and strikes issues for the rest of the game. Most of my experience involving this practice comes from doing JC games. JC teams have the worst player attitudes as well as the worst coaches attitudes, IMO. It works for me.

I don't work many JC games, but NAIA teams can be the same way. Some small college teams think they're Texas or North Carolina when in reality they're closer to a high school team.

[plateumpire29]

Generally, in an upper level game, if the volume is such that only I can hear it I'm a little more lenient. If it's turned up to "11" where everyone in the park can hear it, then I'm issuing a ticket to the parking lot. If I have a pitcher who is demonstrating, and the level doesn't matter here, I send the catcher out to him with a stern message about being forced to throw the ball into a teacup if the antics continue. I can't remember that message ever being disregarded. It all has to do with cumulative experience when it comes to knowing the right time to eject. This year I tossed a college coach three pitches into a game. I was in "A" and he decided to stand at the third base line and scream at me about the opposing pitcher's mechanics. When he disobeyed my directive to go back to his position and keep quiet, I dumped him. When he came out to get his money's worth, I explained to him that I wasn't going to listen to that garbage for two hours, and that the conversation, as far as I was concerned, was over. The rest of the game was played in sweet silence! I knew, from experience, that if I didn't eliminate the problem, it would be just that for the remainder of the game.

[umpire_scott]

Generally, in an upper level game, if the volume is such that only I can hear it I'm a little more lenient. If it's turned up to "11" where everyone in the park can hear it, then I'm issuing a ticket to the parking lot. If I have a pitcher who is demonstrating, and the level doesn't matter here, I send the catcher out to him with a stern message about being forced to throw the ball into a teacup if the antics continue. I can't remember that message ever being disregarded. It all has to do with cumulative experience when it comes to knowing the right time to eject. This year I tossed a college coach three pitches into a game. I was in "A" and he decided to stand at the third base line and scream at me about the opposing pitcher's mechanics. When he disobeyed my directive to go back to his position and keep quiet, I dumped him. When he came out to get his money's worth, I explained to him that I wasn't going to listen to that garbage for two hours, and that the conversation, as far as I was concerned, was over. The rest of the game was played in sweet silence! I knew, from experience, that if I didn't eliminate the problem, it would be just that for the remainder of the game.

I don't know that I can ever agree with telling a player that I'm going to change the strike zone if the antics don't stop. I would think if a coach got wind of that the umpire could clearly be questioned for professionalism and integrity issues.

I worked with an umpire several years ago and he was getting it from one team (mostly fans) regarding his strike zone. A pitch came in about eye level and he called it a strike. The OC came out and asked him about it. First he told the coach you can't argue balls and strikes. The coach said "so you're saying that was in the zone". The umpire replied "I'm saying you better tell your fans to stop complaining about my strike zone". Coach reported this to the UIC, umpire never worked for our organization again.

[Jocko]

Generally, in an upper level game, if the volume is such that only I can hear it I'm a little more lenient. If it's turned up to "11" where everyone in the park can hear it, then I'm issuing a ticket to the parking lot. If I have a pitcher who is demonstrating, and the level doesn't matter here, I send the catcher out to him with a stern message about being forced to throw the ball into a teacup if the antics continue. I can't remember that message ever being disregarded. It all has to do with cumulative experience when it comes to knowing the right time to eject. This year I tossed a college coach three pitches into a game. I was in "A" and he decided to stand at the third base line and scream at me about the opposing pitcher's mechanics. When he disobeyed my directive to go back to his position and keep quiet, I dumped him. When he came out to get his money's worth, I explained to him that I wasn't going to listen to that garbage for two hours, and that the conversation, as far as I was concerned, was over. The rest of the game was played in sweet silence! I knew, from experience, that if I didn't eliminate the problem, it would be just that for the remainder of the game.

I don't know that I can ever agree with telling a player that I'm going to change the strike zone if the antics don't stop. I would think if a coach got wind of that the umpire could clearly be questioned for professionalism and integrity issues.

I worked with an umpire several years ago and he was getting it from one team (mostly fans) regarding his strike zone. A pitch came in about eye level and he called it a strike. The OC came out and asked him about it. First he told the coach you can't argue balls and strikes. The coach said "so you're saying that was in the zone". The umpire replied "I'm saying you better tell your fans to stop complaining about my strike zone". Coach reported this to the UIC, umpire never worked for our organization again.

He did 2 things wrong.

1) Listened to fans chirping

2) Abused his authority to retaliate

He was unprofessinal and exhibited poor character