Score by BB or third Out?

[oswalmar]

Hi! A colleague asked me a question that, sincerely, made ​​me doubt his decision.

Situation: Bases loaded, two outs.

The pitcher gives BB to BR and all runners should advance to next base. The 3rd base run leaves the defensive team on the field. The BR begins to celebrate with their patners without reaching the 1st base. The 1st base coach, seeing that did not quite reach the base, grabbed his arm and took him to her. The umpires call it the BR out for the coach interference. Like the BR was out before get the 1st base, 3rd run is voided (third out on the BR before 1st base). I'm not sure this decision. What do you think?

[mstaylor]

So you are saying it is a game ending BB? If so then yes, everybody has to advance to end the run. I have never seen it happen but if the coach did physically stop the BR from joining the celebration and escorts him to the base, certainly sounds like coach assistance.

[Replacematt]

Can there be illegal assistance on an awarded base?

[mstaylor]

Yes there can. You can have an out on an awarded base.

[RichMSN]

On a game ending BB/HBP award, only the BR and R3 have to advance (except in NFHS rules).

I would agree that coach's assistance would apply here, but I'd wonder which deity I pissed off to have it happen to me.

[mstaylor]

Rich:

On a game ending play, awards only the BR and R3 have to touch, a live play everyone has to touch? Do I have that correct?

[RichMSN]

Rich:

On a game ending play, awards only the BR and R3 have to touch, a live play everyone has to touch? Do I have that correct?

Yes. That includes a BB or HBP though since those are awards. No force play, no chance to retire R1 or R2.

I assumed it was a game ending play since everyone was celebrating. Otherwise it would be an odd sight.

[mstaylor]

Thanks Rich, I sometimes get that backwards.

[Jocko]

The ball is live on a BB. Definitely illegal assistance by the coach. On a hbp, since the ball is dead anyway, I doubt I'd call it. He could argue he was checking his runner. What a s**tstorm! Would the ball live/dead matter? I think so, in the spirit of the rule, but I admit it may not.

[renegadewolf]

This seems to fall into the catagory of "if no one bitches about it, No way am I calling it". Thats a very dirty stick and game ending plays are not the time to demonstate your knowledge of the minutiae of baseball rules.

[scrounge]

This seems to fall into the catagory of "if no one bitches about it, No way am I calling it". Thats a very dirty stick and game ending plays are not the time to demonstate your knowledge of the minutiae of baseball rules.

Yep. And if the DC goes ape-crazy, "sorry coach, I was watching home to ensure that the runner touched the plate"

[RichMSN]

The ball is live on a BB. Definitely illegal assistance by the coach. On a hbp, since the ball is dead anyway, I doubt I'd call it. He could argue he was checking his runner. What a s**tstorm! Would the ball live/dead matter? I think so, in the spirit of the rule, but I admit it may not.

It's an interesting question on a HBP.

I was involved in a situation in a LL tournament game last year that provoked a fair amount of animated discussion (so I was told) afterwards. Kid hit a home run, missed the plate, and was shoved back to touch the plate by a teammate that had come out to celebrate. I called the runner out. No protest was filed, but I was really curious how it would've turned out, so I posted it on the LL list on Facebook.

After 3 days or so, they said I was wrong and should've ignored the shove. They also admitted that had there been a protest that night the result might have been different and also that there was a fair amount of disagreement and discussion before they arrived at some kind of an answer. They also said that had it been a base coach or even a coach off the bench, the result may/would have been different.

Just goes to show that quite a lot of the baseball rules require interpretation by humans and the answer you get may depend on the people ruling and when the question is asked.

[Jocko]

The ball is live on a BB. Definitely illegal assistance by the coach. On a hbp, since the ball is dead anyway, I doubt I'd call it. He could argue he was checking his runner. What a s**tstorm! Would the ball live/dead matter? I think so, in the spirit of the rule, but I admit it may not.

It's an interesting question on a HBP.

I was involved in a situation in a LL tournament game last year that provoked a fair amount of animated discussion (so I was told) afterwards. Kid hit a home run, missed the plate, and was shoved back to touch the plate by a teammate that had come out to celebrate. I called the runner out. No protest was filed, but I was really curious how it would've turned out, so I posted it on the LL list on Facebook.

After 3 days or so, they said I was wrong and should've ignored the shove. They also admitted that had there been a protest that night the result might have been different and also that there was a fair amount of disagreement and discussion before they arrived at some kind of an answer. They also said that had it been a base coach or even a coach off the bench, the result may/would have been different.

Just goes to show that quite a lot of the baseball rules require interpretation by humans and the answer you get may depend on the people ruling and when the question is asked.

This raises another interesting ? R3 trips. R2 helps R3 back to his feet as they're running bases on a basehit to OF. I have nothing on this as long as he doesn't pass him on the basepath. Comments?

[RichMSN]

The ball is live on a BB. Definitely illegal assistance by the coach. On a hbp, since the ball is dead anyway, I doubt I'd call it. He could argue he was checking his runner. What a s**tstorm! Would the ball live/dead matter? I think so, in the spirit of the rule, but I admit it may not.

It's an interesting question on a HBP.

I was involved in a situation in a LL tournament game last year that provoked a fair amount of animated discussion (so I was told) afterwards. Kid hit a home run, missed the plate, and was shoved back to touch the plate by a teammate that had come out to celebrate. I called the runner out. No protest was filed, but I was really curious how it would've turned out, so I posted it on the LL list on Facebook.

After 3 days or so, they said I was wrong and should've ignored the shove. They also admitted that had there been a protest that night the result might have been different and also that there was a fair amount of disagreement and discussion before they arrived at some kind of an answer. They also said that had it been a base coach or even a coach off the bench, the result may/would have been different.

Just goes to show that quite a lot of the baseball rules require interpretation by humans and the answer you get may depend on the people ruling and when the question is asked.

This raises another interesting ? R3 trips. R2 helps R3 back to his feet as they're running bases on a basehit to OF. I have nothing on this as long as he doesn't pass him on the basepath. Comments?

There's no rule against a runner assisting another runner. You're exactly right -- unless the following runner passes the preceding runner, it's nothing.

[Jocko]

The ball is live on a BB. Definitely illegal assistance by the coach. On a hbp, since the ball is dead anyway, I doubt I'd call it. He could argue he was checking his runner. What a s**tstorm! Would the ball live/dead matter? I think so, in the spirit of the rule, but I admit it may not.

It's an interesting question on a HBP.

I was involved in a situation in a LL tournament game last year that provoked a fair amount of animated discussion (so I was told) afterwards. Kid hit a home run, missed the plate, and was shoved back to touch the plate by a teammate that had come out to celebrate. I called the runner out. No protest was filed, but I was really curious how it would've turned out, so I posted it on the LL list on Facebook.

After 3 days or so, they said I was wrong and should've ignored the shove. They also admitted that had there been a protest that night the result might have been different and also that there was a fair amount of disagreement and discussion before they arrived at some kind of an answer. They also said that had it been a base coach or even a coach off the bench, the result may/would have been different.

Just goes to show that quite a lot of the baseball rules require interpretation by humans and the answer you get may depend on the people ruling and when the question is asked.

This raises another interesting ? R3 trips. R2 helps R3 back to his feet as they're running bases on a basehit to OF. I have nothing on this as long as he doesn't pass him on the basepath. Comments?

There's no rule against a runner assisting another runner. You're exactly right -- unless the following runner passes the preceding runner, it's nothing.

I bet some coaches would argue. Incorrectly, but try anyway.

[RichMSN]

I bet some coaches would argue. Incorrectly, but try anyway.

It's where having a good knowledge of the rules is crucial. "There's no rule against a runner assisting another runner." More than 5 words, but clear and concise. ;)

[oswalmar]

This seems to fall into the catagory of "if no one bitches about it, No way am I calling it". Thats a very dirty stick and game ending plays are not the time to demonstate your knowledge of the minutiae of baseball rules.

Yep. And if the DC goes ape-crazy, "sorry coach, I was watching home to ensure that the runner touched the plate"

Ja,ja,ja. Big problem!

I'm according with you.

Without a doubt, I wouldn't want be "in the shoes" of my colleague. At times, enforced the rules, can bring more consequences than benefits.

There's an old adage of umpires: "Don't seeing all, don't hearing all"...

[noumpere]

Some preventive umpiring can help in the original play by telling the batter that he or she needs to touch first before the game can be over. Dont tell him or her to actually go down there because that would be coaching of course.

[sdix00]

The ball is live on a BB. Definitely illegal assistance by the coach. On a hbp, since the ball is dead anyway, I doubt I'd call it. He could argue he was checking his runner. What a s**tstorm! Would the ball live/dead matter? I think so, in the spirit of the rule, but I admit it may not.

It's an interesting question on a HBP.

I was involved in a situation in a LL tournament game last year that provoked a fair amount of animated discussion (so I was told) afterwards. Kid hit a home run, missed the plate, and was shoved back to touch the plate by a teammate that had come out to celebrate. I called the runner out. No protest was filed, but I was really curious how it would've turned out, so I posted it on the LL list on Facebook.

After 3 days or so, they said I was wrong and should've ignored the shove. They also admitted that had there been a protest that night the result might have been different and also that there was a fair amount of disagreement and discussion before they arrived at some kind of an answer. They also said that had it been a base coach or even a coach off the bench, the result may/would have been different.

Just goes to show that quite a lot of the baseball rules require interpretation by humans and the answer you get may depend on the people ruling and when the question is asked.

I'm too lazy to search fb for the thread, but I agree with your call, Rich. If it happened to me, I would have backed it up with this.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=11487843

http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/3086-this-is-a-new-one/

The only difference here is that the MLB play was during a live ball. But I would hate to believe that makes a difference here.