Double Play, Forced Play? I don't think so...

[oswalmar]

I want to know you opinion about it and

standardize criteria

:

R1, 1 Out.

Situation:

The pitcher is in Set position, the R1 tries steals 2B (reaching 2B) while the pitcher still in set position (Watch out! pitcher never detaches), then he pitched the ball, batter connect a fly to CF, CF threw to first base because the runner returned to that base. The 1B fielder tag that base and the umpire's call out.

Is the call right?

Please support, if possible, your answer citing baseball rule point or umpire manual.

Thanks.

[johnnyg08]

What have you found on your own? It's definitely not a force out.

Definition of a force out: By virtue of a batter becoming a runner a runner occupying a base is forced to advance to the next base.

If the batter runner is retired on the caught fly ball, then there is no possibility of a force out.

To answer your question, you must determine when a pitching motion begins or when the Time of Pitch begins.

Why do you feel the umpire(s) got the play wrong?

[oswalmar]

Because from the moment the BR was made Out disappears forced play situation.

Furthermore, while the runner returned erroneously to first base, after he had won the second, should not be out tagging on the base, but touching him.

It is my opinion.

Do you think?

[sdix00]

No cite necessary if you are not going to call out the runner.

I would ask the umpire who called the runner out to cite his reason.

[Rich Ives]

I think R1 was the runner declared out. I think the umpire probably ruled that it was a failure to retag, not a force. The runner had to have achieved 2B before the pitcher made any motion at all to deliver the pitch (the pitcher not detatching is not the criteria). It's not very likely that he did.

It's an appeal play and the fielder can tag either the base or the runner.

[AJtheUMP]

If R1 made it to second while the pitcher is still set BEFORE time of pitch. Then he would have to tag up on 2nd not 1st right? There was no reason for him to go back.

[oswalmar]

I am from Venezuela and the umpires who made the call are not members of this forum. Regarding the comment of Rich Ives, I think this is not an appeal play, is a continuos play.

Probably I did not know to explain the situation correctly. The Runner went to second before the pitcher had compromised to pitch to home. Then when the fly is caught, he returned at 1B, not at 2B, then the throw goes to first base, which is tagged. My questions are: Is it Out? It should not be touched the runner? Reactivates the runner's situation according the Rule 7.08 (e) says?

[oswalmar]

If R1 made it to second while the pitcher is still set BEFORE time of pitch. Then he would have to tag up on 2nd not 1st right? There was no reason for him to go back.

The fact is he returned and his action probably caused the play in 1B.

[Fittske24]

OBR Rule 7.08(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time†and declare the runner out;

But.....

In order to apply 7.08, the runner MUST run in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. In your situation it appears as if the runner "thinks" he must return to first base. So he is not intending to confuse the defense.

Now read the comment to OBR Rule 7.08(i)

OBR Rule 7.08(i) Comment: If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.

A few things to consider:

• A play where the defense attempts to retire a runner for leaving early, or failing to retouch is NOT a force out. This is an appeal play by the defense.
  
• If a base runner acquires the next base BEFORE the pitcher starts his delivery, the TOP location will be the current base occupied by the runner. In your posted situation this would be 2nd base.
  
• Per OBR Rule 7.08(i) Comment: this is not an appeal play. In order for R2 to be retired, he must be tagged out before reaching 1st base. If the runner reaches 1st base safely and then leaves the base because he "thinks" he is out by defenseive appeal, he is now in jeopardy of being called out if tagged, or he can be called out for abandonment if he progress a reasonable distance toward the dugout.
  

[Rich Ives]

OBR Rule 7.08(i) After he has acquired legal possession of a base, he runs the bases in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. The umpire shall immediately call “Time†and declare the runner out;

But.....

In order to apply 7.08, the runner MUST run in reverse order for the purpose of confusing the defense or making a travesty of the game. In your situation it appears as if the runner "thinks" he must return to first base. So he is not intending to confuse the defense.

Now read the comment to OBR Rule 7.08(i)

OBR Rule 7.08(i) Comment: If a runner touches an unoccupied base and then thinks the ball was caught or is decoyed into returning to the base he last touched, he may be put out running back to that base, but if he reaches the previously occupied base safely he cannot be put out while in contact with that base.

A few things to consider:

• A play where the defense attempts to retire a runner for leaving early, or failing to retouch is NOT a force out. This is an appeal play by the defense.
  
• If a base runner acquires the next base BEFORE the pitcher starts his delivery, the TOP location will be the current base occupied by the runner. In your posted situation this would be 2nd base.
  
• Per OBR Rule 7.08(i) Comment: this is not an appeal play. In order for R2 to be retired, he must be tagged out before reaching 1st base. If the runner reaches 1st base safely and then leaves the base because he "thinks" he is out by defenseive appeal, he is now in jeopardy of being called out if tagged, or he can be called out for abandonment if he progress a reasonable distance toward the dugout.
  

It's not an appeal if it's just a confused runner retreating. But if it's a failure to tag then it is an appeal. So it depends on what the umpire(s) think happened.

[Rich Ives]

I am from Venezuela and the umpires who made the call are not members of this forum. Regarding the comment of Rich Ives, I think this is not an appeal play, is a continuos play.

Probably I did not know to explain the situation correctly. The Runner went to second before the pitcher had compromised to pitch to home. Then when the fly is caught, he returned at 1B, not at 2B, then the throw goes to first base, which is tagged. My questions are: Is it Out? It should not be touched the runner? Reactivates the runner's situation according the Rule 7.08 (e) says?

It is difficult to communicate in a second language so I'm not completely sure what you are saying.

If the runner reached second base before the pitcher made any motion in any way related to delivering a pitch then the runner is considered to be at second base and it is not a tag appeal.

If the pitcher made any motion at all that is part of delivering a pitch before the runner reached second base then it is a failure to tag appeal.

It does not seem reasonable that a pitcher would just stand motionless and let the runner go to second base, so I'm having a hard time with this. Is that what really happened?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Based on the OP wording that R1 had already reached 2nd base while the pitcher was still in the set position, then R1 had already acquired 2nd base, and must be tagged with the ball while off base in order to be considered out.

[ukce1861]

Quick question on this. If the pitcher comes set, does that count as beginning his motion, thus defining TOP? Is the "stretch" part of his delivery?

[Rich Ives]

Quick question on this. If the pitcher comes set, does that count as beginning his motion, thus defining TOP? Is the "stretch" part of his delivery?

No. No.

[Bob Bainter]

This play is not as hard as everyone is making it out to be, in my opinion...

The runner legally OCCUPIED 2B before the pitch...it's his bag, period, so that would be the base to tag up on.

He ran back to first because he was confused, not because he was running in reverse to confuse the defense...hell, he was the confused one! (I would be, too!)

If they throw to first and don't physically tag him before he gets back to first, he's safe. Throwing to the bag wouldn't be ok because he was on second at the time of the pitch. The problem lies in how on God's green earth you're going to explain that to the defensive team...that the runner just screwed himself out of a base that he already had reached (2B)...

It sucks, but that's just a F'd up play...and that is one that could actually happen in a poorly mismatched game.

[Rich Ives]

Based on the OP wording that R1 had already reached 2nd base while the pitcher was still in the set position, then R1 had already acquired 2nd base, and must be tagged with the ball while off base in order to be considered out.

Language issue.

The OP said he tried to steal while pitcher was still set (so far legal but non-controlling as to the runner's legal base - F1 could still have started his motion after the try started but before he got there) and the pitcher didn't "detatch". I'm not sure what he is saying in the last part when he says detatch. Later he says "compromised to pitch". It just doesn't flow because the poster is using what is to him a second language and we need to get it described better.

[Rich Ives]

The runner legally OCCUPIED 2B before the pitch...it's his bag, period, so that would be the base to tag up on.

We all grasp that. What isn't clear because of the language difficultie is whether or not he did occupy second base at TOP.

[johnnyg08]

Bob, if for some reason they don't tag him or throw the ball out of play while attempting to appeal at the wrong base, what would be the proper award (on a ball thrown out of play in this Sitch)?

3B from TOT?

Thanks

[johnnyg08]

I interpret "detach" to mean "step off"

He's might be using a translator which is using those words that don't make a lot of sense in baseball context.

[Bob Bainter]

Bob, if for some reason they don't tag him or throw the ball out of play while attempting to appeal at the wrong base, what would be the proper award (on a ball thrown out of play in this <acronym title='Situation'>Sitch</acronym>)?

3B from <acronym title='Time of throw'>TOT</acronym>?

Thanks

Damn, Johnny...that would TRULY suck...lol

It would have to be 3rd base because he has now given up 2nd...he's between 1st and 3rd...ugh...good luck throwing that ruling in there!

[BT_Blue]

I interpret "detach" to mean "step off"

He's might be using a translator which is using those words that don't make a lot of sense in baseball context.

Oddly enough, I took "detach" has him separating his hands to start his pitching motion. I never thought of it as him disengaging from the pitchers rubber. What we have here is a case of being lost in translation.

[oswalmar]

Gentlemen, I apologize for the inappropriate use of some terms. Indeed, English is my second language and I not handling it with complete ease and support my syntax with translation software. I appreciate your comprehension in this regard. Also promise to leave familiar with the appropriate terms.

With respect to the word "detach" and "step of" is more appropriate to the second definition. Thank you.

[oswalmar]

I am from Venezuela and the umpires who made the call are not members of this forum. Regarding the comment of Rich Ives, I think this is not an appeal play, is a continuos play.

Probably I did not know to explain the situation correctly. The Runner went to second before the pitcher had compromised to pitch to home. Then when the fly is caught, he returned at 1B, not at 2B, then the throw goes to first base, which is tagged. My questions are: Is it Out? It should not be touched the runner? Reactivates the runner's situation according the Rule 7.08 (e) says?

It is difficult to communicate in a second language so I'm not completely sure what you are saying.

If the runner reached second base before the pitcher made any motion in any way related to delivering a pitch then the runner is considered to be at second base and it is not a tag appeal.

If the pitcher made any motion at all that is part of delivering a pitch before the runner reached second base then it is a failure to tag appeal.

It does not seem reasonable that a pitcher would just stand motionless and let the runner go to second base, so I'm having a hard time with this. Is that what really happened?

That was what really happened. It is a rare and unusual case, happened in a baseball game amateur class (or level) "A". The runner reached second base without the pitcher step off. And then, once catched the fly, instead of staying at second base, he returned to first base.

[TNCoach]

Could be a case of defensive indifference where fielders were guarding against something else.

[sdix00]

Gentlemen, I apologize for the inappropriate use of some terms. Indeed, English is my second language and I not handling it with complete ease and support my syntax with translation software. I appreciate your comprehension in this regard. Also promise to leave familiar with the appropriate terms.

With respect to the word "detach" and "step of" is more appropriate to the second definition. Thank you.

Very cool. It didn't even occur to me that you were using translation software. That makes a lot of sense now. Gosh, 5 years ago we probably couldn't communicate at all.

I love that you can participate in the conversation. Please post more.