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Interference

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I'm not sure the FPSR applies here.That refers to an illegal slide which did not occur here. It could be simple INT. which would require judgement as to if he could have had two absent the INT. 8.4.2 comment.

Also, as a few others have stated, the runner has really done nothing illegal. He ran from 1st to 2nd and did not slide which he is not required to do. I see no rule support to say he has to run away from the play either.8-4-2a(1) only says that if he does run away from the play to avoid it that it is not illegal.

The language of 8-4-2b(2) is a little confusing to me. It say any runner is out if he does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play does not slide in a direct line between the bases.

Does the terms does not legally slide and does not slide in a direct line between the bases mean he has to legally slide or does it mean only if he chooses to slide it has to be legal. I would say the latter based on part 2. of the same rule which says runners are never required to slide.

.

Force play or not, a Runner must avoid a Fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him.

If the runner fails to avoid the fielder, then Interference should be called.

Legally Sliding is considered as legally avoiding. If the slide is illegal, then Interference should be called.

NOW, if there is a force, AND the runner slides, two more things happen:

  1. There is an additional requirement that IF the runner slides, it must be legal as before, but must ALSO be in a direct line between the bases.
  2. IF the runner slides, AND it is not legal as defined in 2-32 and 8-4-2b, THEN there is a FPSR violation and the DP is automatic, regardless of whether the DP was possible.

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Trying to think through this without any of my reference material. I agree that it's not FPSR (there was no slide). However, if you rule that it's interference, don't we need to get an out? R1 was already out on this play, so wouldn't BR be out for the interference on the now retired R1? I assume that we are ruling that the interference was intentional since that is required on a thrown ball.

It seems to me that we can only call interference when there is a play to be made. If R1 is not yet out and interferes, then R1 is out for interference. IF R1 is already out and interferes then he it out on the tag.

In both cases, I think we have to judge if the play on BR is possible. If there is no play to be made on BR, then I don't think we can get an out.

This is my line of thinking because the FED rules make it very clear that a FPSR is an automatic DP regardless, but does not say this for regular Interference. Instead FED gives us 8.4.2 COMMENT: The umpire has authority to declare two runners out when a runner or retired runner illegally interferes and prevents a double play.

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I guess my thing is that the fielder was not making a play on R1( the runner that did not slide ), he is already out, but he was making a play on the BR ( attempted throw ). The R1 did nothing illegal that I can tell. He was where he should be so doesn't the fielder have some responsibility in side stepping or something to create a throwing lane. Not saying anyone is wrong, I just want to get this right if it happens to me.

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I guess my thing is that the fielder was not making a play on R1( the runner that did not slide ), he is already out, but he was making a play on the BR ( attempted throw ). The R1 did nothing illegal that I can tell. He was where he should be so doesn't the fielder have some responsibility in side stepping or something to create a throwing lane. Not saying anyone is wrong, I just want to get this right if it happens to me.

I think the R1 DID do something wrong. He failed to avoid the fielder making a play on him. In FED rules, he cannot just trot in to 2B. He must avoid the fielder by legally sliding, veering off, or otherwise.

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Doesn't this depend upon the proximity of R1 to second base? If R1 is 30 feet from the bag when the fielder goes to turn two would R1 still have to avoid since he is so far away?

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This is simple, we had this in my game last night.. if the runner chooses to slide he must do so legally, the runner can go in standing up.. but if he interferes ( which to me in this OP did not happen) you have nothing...

if you have a FPSR then it is a automatic 2 outs.. whether or not the defense could turn the double play has nothing to do with it.

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I guess my thing is that the fielder was not making a play on R1( the runner that did not slide ), he is already out, but he was making a play on the BR ( attempted throw ). The R1 did nothing illegal that I can tell. He was where he should be so doesn't the fielder have some responsibility in side stepping or something to create a throwing lane. Not saying anyone is wrong, I just want to get this right if it happens to me.

I think the R1 DID do something wrong. He failed to avoid the fielder making a play on him. In FED rules, he cannot just trot in to 2B. He must avoid the fielder by legally sliding, veering off, or otherwise.

He still can head in a straight line toward the base. Wouldn't you agree? Certainly, he might get hit in the face, but there are situations were he could do this in FED and be legal right??

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As I envision the typical 6-4-3/4-6-3, I am not sure how R1 goes in standing and still avoids the fielder making a play on him. He is required to avoid, and a legal slide is the most common way of doing so.

I am probably missing something.

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Unless I am wrong he is only required to avoid a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to tag him. That is not the case here. In the OP the R1 is already out by the force play at 2B, now the fielder is attempting a play on the B/R at 1B. I think this would require an intentional act such as jumping or raising his hands to interfere with the throw to be deemed INT.

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I stand corrected. I'm at work and don't have a rulebook or casebook but did look at some things online. If a runner goes in standing up and makes contact or alters the play, the call should be interference under FED rules.

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Doesn't this depend upon the proximity of R1 to second base? If R1 is 30 feet from the bag when the fielder goes to turn two would R1 still have to avoid since he is so far away?

This is right and theres a case play where the runner is far from the base and gets hit with the ball and the ruling is to play on. In the original play though, the runner was at the base and I think the rulings are different in that case. Basically if the runner is close enought to the base to where he would usually begin his slide then he needs to slide or get out of the way.

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Doesn't this depend upon the proximity of R1 to second base? If R1 is 30 feet from the bag when the fielder goes to turn two would R1 still have to avoid since he is so far away?

This is right and theres a case play where the runner is far from the base and gets hit with the ball and the ruling is to play on. In the original play though, the runner was at the base and I think the rulings are different in that case. Basically if the runner is close enought to the base to where he would usually begin his slide then he needs to slide or get out of the way.

That makes sense, thank you.

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This is right and theres a case play where the runner is far from the base and gets hit with the ball and the ruling is to play on.

I tried to find it last night and couldn't. Either it's been removed or it's buried somewhere else in the Case Book.

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Unless I am wrong he is only required to avoid a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to tag him. That is not the case here. In the OP the R1 is already out by the force play at 2B, now the fielder is attempting a play on the B/R at 1B. I think this would require an intentional act such as jumping or raising his hands to interfere with the throw to be deemed INT.

I know you corrected it, but I will point out an important difference for the purposes of the thread.

In LL, a runner must slide or attempt to get around a fielder holding the ball and waiting to make a TAG. (7.08a3)

In FED, a runner must legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him. (8-4-2c) To me, this includes not only TAG plays but also FORCE plays at a base.

So the FED rule is more stringent. If F4 is standing on 2B with the ball, then I interpret 8-4-2c to say that R1 can not also go in to 2B standing. For me, that is not avoiding a fielder who is making a play on him.

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I don't think we ever determined if this is part of the FPSR or just a "normal INT call". Do we get two outs on this ? All I have read included this play on a document explaining the FPSR so I assume they are saying two outs.

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I may be off base here, but 8-4-2f . . ."as a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." Seems this REQUIRES the runner or retired runner to avoid the the fielder whether the fielder is making a play on him or not. Since the retired runner is required to avoid the fielder and play pursuant to 8-4-2f, he is now in violation of 8-4-2b, by "illegally" altering the play of the fielder. This, then calls for a double play pursuant to the Penalty section of 8-4-2.

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By rule, if the runner alters the play from the fielder, then the runner and BR are out.

If you can quote this rule, you would be the first to do so. This is my point. I can find no rule that makes Interference on a force play (no slide) an automatic DP.

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I may be off base here, but 8-4-2f . . ."as a runner or retired runner, fails to execute a legal slide, or does not attempt to avoid the fielder or the play on a force play at any base." Seems this REQUIRES the runner or retired runner to avoid the the fielder whether the fielder is making a play on him or not.

I believe the two bolded sections above (the rule and your interp) are in conflict. If the runner is required to avoid "the fielder or the play", then by definition, the fielder is making a play on him.

Since the retired runner is required to avoid the fielder and play pursuant to 8-4-2f, he is now in violation of 8-4-2b, by "illegally" altering the play of the fielder. This, then calls for a double play pursuant to the Penalty section of 8-4-2.

If a fielder violates 8-4-2f, then he is in violation of 8-4-2f. In order to be in violation of 8-4-2b, he must violate 8-4-2b.

8-4-2b is exclusive to the slide. It articulates the manner in which a runner may legally slide. That's it. If a runner does not slide, then 8-4-2b is 100% not applicable.

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By rule, if the runner alters the play from the fielder, then the runner and BR are out.

If you can quote this rule, you would be the first to do so. This is my point. I can find no rule that makes Interference on a force play (no slide) an automatic DP.

Rule 8 Section 4 Article 2 sub-section B. from the 2012 NFHS states:

Any runner is out when he: (B) does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or

illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not

slide in a direct line between the bases. A runner may slide away from the fielder to avoid contact or

alter the play of the fielder. Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide

must be legal. The force play slide rule can be enforced at all bases, including the plate.

It does not matter if the runner slides or not. It does not matter if the runner runs to right field or the infield. If the runner alters the play in any way, shape, form, or fashion, then the BR is out as well.

This came from the Oregon state rules interpreter.

The onus is on the runner to avoid getting in the fielders way, period.

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By rule, if the runner alters the play from the fielder, then the runner and BR are out.

Rule 8 Section 4 Article 2 sub-section B. from the 2012 NFHS states:

Any runner is out when he: ( B) does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or

illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not

slide in a direct line between the bases. A runner may slide away from the fielder to avoid contact or

alter the play of the fielder. Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide

must be legal. The force play slide rule can be enforced at all bases, including the plate.

It does not matter if the runner slides or not. It does not matter if the runner runs to right field or the infield. If the runner alters the play in any way, shape, form, or fashion, then the BR is out as well.

This came from the Oregon state rules interpreter.

The onus is on the runner to avoid getting in the fielders way, period.

How in the world does a rule interpreter read that 8-4-2b applies to anything but a slide??? That makes no sense.

This came from the Oregon state rules interpreter.

It does not matter if the runner slides or not. It does not matter if the runner runs to right field or the infield. If the runner alters the play in any way, shape, form, or fashion, then the BR is out as well.

This came from the rule book:

On a force-play slide with less than two outs, the runner is declared out, as well as the batter-runner.

The umpire has authority to declare two runners out when a runner or retired runner illegally interferes and prevents a double play.

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By rule, if the runner alters the play from the fielder, then the runner and BR are out.

If you can quote this rule, you would be the first to do so. This is my point. I can find no rule that makes Interference on a force play (no slide) an automatic DP.

Rule 8 Section 4 Article 2 sub-section B. from the 2012 NFHS states:

Any runner is out when he: ( B) does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or

illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not

slide in a direct line between the bases. A runner may slide away from the fielder to avoid contact or

alter the play of the fielder. Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide

must be legal. The force play slide rule can be enforced at all bases, including the plate.

It does not matter if the runner slides or not. It does not matter if the runner runs to right field or the infield. If the runner alters the play in any way, shape, form, or fashion, then the BR is out as well.

This came from the Oregon state rules interpreter.

The onus is on the runner to avoid getting in the fielders way, period.

You are incorrect, and either you misunderstood Tad, or he's wrong. I'm banking on the former.

I will reiterate what multiple people have said: A violation of FPSR (8-4-2b) requires a slide. This is a safety rule. 8-4-2f is interference.

8-4-2b: Must have a slide, and do not need a play on BR.

8-4-2f: Any action other than a slide, and must have a play on BR.

Take this, for example. F4 flips to F6. After he makes the transfer, R1 comes in standing up, bumps into him, and causes him to drop the ball. If there was a potential play on BR, you can get the second out. If not, there was no interference.

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Tjhe rule says "does not legally slide". Well a runner who goes in standing up certainly didnt legally slide. It might be different if the rule said "slides illegally and makes contact or alters the play"

Case 8-4-2 Sitation W has an example of two out with no slide but its a more serious play but the concept still applies I think.

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Tjhe rule says "does not legally slide". Well a runner who goes in standing up certainly didnt legally slide. It might be different if the rule said "slides illegally and makes contact or alters the play"

Case 8-4-2 Sitation W has an example of two out with no slide but its a more serious play but the concept still applies I think.

Are you saying "does not legally slide" means

1. "Must slide and do it legally"

-OR-

2. "If he slides, it must be a legal slide"

Which one are you saying?

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Tjhe rule says "does not legally slide". Well a runner who goes in standing up certainly didnt legally slide. It might be different if the rule said "slides illegally and makes contact or alters the play"

Case 8-4-2 Sitation W has an example of two out with no slide but its a more serious play but the concept still applies I think.

Are you saying "does not legally slide" means

1. "Must slide and do it legally"

-OR-

2. "If he slides, it must be a legal slide"

Which one are you saying?

That's what I mentioned earlier in the thread. I'm not sure which one it means.

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