new ump with a couple of rule claifications

[26101ump]

just started umping late this year and have come across some things that i feel i need to get clarified.

1) bunting - if the batter squares after the picture starting his windup, is this 'intent' to bunt the ball and a pitch outside the zone be a strike (must the batter pull his bat back in this case?) does "meet the ball" mean to go at the ball or is an up and down motion considered on in the same?

after every game i try and reflect back on some of the calls that were either questioned or stuck out in my mind. and this is one that has been in the forefront of my mind the past couple of games.

2) appeals of a play. when more than 1 ump calling a game, is it allowable for a base ump to rule on a ball/strike call or a call made another ump, home plate or not?

Edited June 5, 2010 by 26101ump

[Mr Umpire]

1) The batter has to try to make the bat hit the ball for an attempt. If he just holds it out there and makes no attempt to hit the ball and makes no contact with the ball, then it is not an "offer to hit the pitch". Just "squaring to show bunt" does not qualify as an attempt. Even if he leaves the bat out over the plate when the pitch goes by.

2) No. The other umpires cannot just overrule a call unless asked by the calling umpire. They have no business offering any help unless asked. Not at any base.

Balls/strikes cannot be called by any other umpire but the plate umpire. Base umpires have no business even giving an opinion on balls/strikes. The only opportunity for a base umpire to do that is on "half swings" when the PU asks for help. If he doesn't ask, then the BU doesn't offer an opinion on the swing.

[26101ump]

1) The batter has to try to make the bat hit the ball for an attempt. If he just holds it out there and makes no attempt to hit the ball and makes no contact with the ball, then it is not an "offer to hit the pitch". Just "squaring to show bunt" does not qualify as an attempt. Even if he leaves the bat out over the plate when the pitch goes by.

So what you are saying is that no matter when the batter squares to bunt, prior to or after the pitcher starts his wind up, the 'intent' is going after the ball?

[Mr Umpire]

Yes. He has to try to hit the ball for intent.

[th3]

HE does, but SHE doesn't (in FED at least)...

2-8, art 2 - Holding the bat in the strike zone is considered a bunt attempt

[ukce1861]

HE does, but SHE doesn't (in FED at least)...

2-8, art 2 - Holding the bat in the strike zone is considered a bunt attempt

This is the same in LL, and I believe it's this way in most SB codes.

[th3]

i didnt think it was the case in asa but i'll check

[26101ump]

Yes. He has to try to hit the ball for intent.

but does it matter when he squares to bunt...sorry for pressing this, our league commissioner state that if he squares after the start of the windup that is his intent.

i guess i failed to mention that this is LL, i do however appreciate the softball analyst since i will be doing softball in the coming days.

thanks to you all!

[Mr Umpire]

LL may say that. I'll let others speak specifically to LL.

But, in OBR, which LL plays under with some extra rules, it doesn't matter when the batter squares to bunt. I don't care if the ball is 10 feet from the plate.

He has to attempt to hit the ball with the bat regardless of when he "squares" to bunt.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

but does it matter when he squares to bunt...sorry for pressing this, our league commissioner state that if he squares after the start of the windup that is his intent.

i guess i failed to mention that this is LL, i do however appreciate the softball analyst since i will be doing softball in the coming days.

thanks to you all!

Is your league commissioner and umpire??? IMHO unless he is an umpire he should'nt be stating things that may not be true. I would say that you need to use whatever resources you have Official Baseball rulebook, Local Association rulebook etc to get the call right. It also doesn't hurt to ask questions...here or to other umpires in your association.

[ukce1861]

Is your league commissioner and umpire???

The real question is, has he read the rulebook?

A BUNT is a batted ball not swung at, but intentionally met with the bat and tapped slowly. The mere holding of the bat in the strike zone is not an attempted bunt.

Pretty cut and dried...

The LL RIM provides additional confirmation that there must be some intent to meet the ball with the bat, beyond just holding it in the zone, but that's really not necessary, IMHO.

Now, for softball, this is different. Holding the bat in the zone is a strike. And your rulebook will not read this yet. This was a change adopted by the LL Congress in February. But this is only for softball.

[Rich Ives]

but does it matter when he squares to bunt...sorry for pressing this, our league commissioner state that if he squares after the start of the windup that is his intent.

i guess i failed to mention that this is LL, i do however appreciate the softball analyst since i will be doing softball in the coming days.

thanks to you all!

The league commissioner is wrong. Look up "bunt" in "The Right Call".

[Big Red]

This is the same in LL, and I believe it's this way in most SB codes.

ukce,

That's not the case in PONY. Most of their rules are based on OBR and that is the case here in regards to bunting.

Rulebook has the same wording as OBR and here is the wording out of Section 8 under Points of Emphasis for umpires:

"On a bunt attempt where the batter puts the bat across the plate, unless the batter moves the bat towards the ball, a strike would not be called if the ball is out of the strike zone."

And along those lines, that bolsters the argument for 26101ump...

Even if leaving the bat over the plate is a strike, in no ruleset in either sport is squaring to bunt even remotely considered an attempt or offer at the pitch, and hence a strike, no matter when the batter does it.

It really comes down to what the batter does with the bat when the pitch arrives.

Just as with rat coaches, ya gotta wonder from where they get some of these commissioners....maybe this guy was a team owner at one time like another certain commish we all know w/ similar logic.

26101ump,

I'd show him what you've learned here and ask him from where he's deriving this interpretation...sure hope it's not another local rule

Wow, good luck with that!

[26101ump]

our commish is an ump...started this year as well...i am going to assume its his interpretation. I was just wondering if there was something beyond what is spelled out in the LL rule book that I was missing.

all it says in 'the right call' is pretty much the same as the LL rulebook....I will see where his interpretation is coming from, my thinking is just his interpretation.

again thank you all, i hope to become a part of many discussions here..since i have began umpiring, i have gained a whole new perspective and respect for the position and the man in blue.

[26101ump]

The LL RIM .

just what exactly is this? I have seen it referenced in many boards and blogs

[kwiggie]

our commish is an ump...started this year as well...i am going to assume its his interpretation. .

I would encourage your commish to log in and at the very least read Nova's quote.

I would say that you need to use whatever resources you have Official Baseball rulebook, Local Association rulebook etc to get the call right. It also doesn't hurt to ask questions...here or to other umpires in your association.

Get in the conversations and ask the questions, this forum will speed your learning curve and you will be the new and much more educated Commish next year.

[ukce1861]

just what exactly is this? I have seen it referenced in many boards and blogs

This is the Little League Rules Instruction Manual. It's the official LL interpretations of the rules. If you want a copy, PM me your e-mail address and I'll be happy to send it out.

[ukce1861]

ukce,

That's not the case in PONY. Most of their rules are based on OBR and that is the case here in regards to bunting.

Good to know. It also appears this is not the case in ASA. The reason I thought it was pretty popular in SB is because this is one of the changes LL made at the Congress, and since it's different than baseball, I assumed it was being driven by a desire to be more like the other SB programs... Apparently not...

[Big Red]

I would encourage your commish to log in and at the very least read Nova's quote.

Get in the conversations and ask the questions, this forum will speed your learning curve and you will be the new and much more educated Commish next year.

+1, especially if he's an ump like you.

[Big Red]

Good to know. It also appears this is not the case in ASA. The reason I thought it was pretty popular in SB is because this is one of the changes LL made at the Congress, and since it's different than baseball, I assumed it was being driven by a desire to be more like the other SB programs... Apparently not...

Yeah, makes me wonder what drove that for LL as I don't know of any other SB ruleset like that. :)

[mstaylor]

The RIM is an excellent thing to have. I just sent a couple of copies to guys on the board. It takes the baseball and softball book, adds The Right Call and the regional instructors comments all in the same document.

[Rich Ives]

Yeah, makes me wonder what drove that for LL as I don't know of any other SB ruleset like that.

Both the NCAA and HS have the "pull it back or it's a strike" in their softball rules.

[Big Red]

Both the NCAA and HS have the "pull it back or it's a strike" in their softball rules.

Rich,

Spot-on...double-checked and I stand corrected. I was going off memory from several years back...my bad.

I know small ball plays a bigger part in softball v. baseball, but it makes me wonder what the reasoning is in making that aspect of the game so different from baseball. Any insight?

[D62 blue]

The RIM is an excellent thing to have. I just sent a couple of copies to guys on the board. It takes the baseball and softball book, adds The Right Call and the regional instructors comments all in the same document.

try www.greenbookrules.com , i agree the rim is great , i browse it all the time . this site is a new version of hearing and viewing rules .

d62

[D62 blue]

just what exactly is this? I have seen it referenced in many boards and blogs

try www.greenbookrules.com , this is a great site .

d62 blue