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Obstruction Question


ukce1861
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8.3.2 SITUATION D: With one out, R2 on second and R1 on first, B4 hits a ground ball directly to F1, who throws to F5 for the force on R2 at third. F5 then throws to F3 in time to put out B4. R2, while leaving second, runs into F6, preventing him from advancing to third.

RULING: The Umpire shall signal obstruction when it occurs ( left arm horizontal to the side with a fist ) and ( since it is a delayed dead ball ) call time after all runners have advanced as far as possible, which in this situation would probably be second base for R1. R2 will then be awarded third base because of the obstruction by F6. The out on B4 at first stands since he was unaffected by the obstruction. B5 will come to bat with two outs and R2 on third and R1 on second base.

My baseball assigner sends out a daily e-mail with Fed Rulings; the above was the one for today. In FED, R2 is awarded third - even though he likely would've been out -because it's always a delayed dead ball and a minimum one base award.

My question is, in OBR, is this Type A or Type B OBS? At first, I thought it was Type B, because the OBS doesn't affect his out (provided I judged he would be out absent the OBS). However, the more I think about it, it's Type A, isn't it? Even though the runner may not be in close proximity to the play, a play is still being made on him, by F1 throwing to F5. So, in OBR, do you kill this as soon as the runner is obstructed and award him 3rd?

What happens if the out happens before the OBS?

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Shooting from the hip here.

This would be Type B. Because the imminent play is not being made on the obstructed runner if F6 is obstructing him. Kill it at the end of the action.

You let this one play out because the runner may get past 3rd on his own and still get an out at the plate or returning back to third after obtaining 3rd. Perhaps F3 throws wild to F5??? Who knows, but let it play.

Never give up your opportunity to get an out if you can. :rolleyes:

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OK, ...I give up ...

Why would you not have a double play here, inning over? Play want' being made on R1 ...more than likely , the double play happened before or right at the OBS ....

If there are no overthows or chances for R1 to advance... what does it matter?

I can't see in a million years a coach buying the ruling given in the OP :shrug:

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I would say it depends when the OBS occurs. If it occurs before F1 throws to F5, then it would be type B. No play is being made on R2 yet b/c F1 can go to any of the 3 bases. If it occurs as F1 is throwing the ball to F5, that would be type A since it is now a play on R2.

I believe timing is everything on this in OBR.

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OK, ...I give up ...

Why would you not have a double play here, inning over? Play want' being made on R1 ...more than likely , the double play happened before or right at the OBS ....

If there are no overthows or chances for R1 to advance... what does it matter?

I can't see in a million years a coach buying the ruling given in the OP :shrug:

8.3.2D, I believe, is saying that R2 was obstructed before the play was made on R2. I believe the case play is illustrating that even though R2 was dead meat, the OBS rule supersedes the likely putout play. 8.3.2D is saving us from having to make that judgement call. "I agree with you that the runner probably would have been out, Coach. However, the rule and case play are both clear. R2 is awarded 3rd."

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OK, ...I give up ...

Why would you not have a double play here, inning over? Play want' being made on R1 ...more than likely , the double play happened before or right at the OBS ....

If there are no overthows or chances for R1 to advance... what does it matter?

I can't see in a million years a coach buying the ruling given in the OP :shrug:

8.3.2D, I believe, is saying that R2 was obstructed before the play was made on R2. I believe the case play is illustrating that even though R2 was dead meat, the OBS rule supersedes the likely putout play. 8.3.2D is saving us from having to make that judgement call. "I agree with you that the runner probably would have been out, Coach. However, the rule and case play are both clear. R2 is awarded 3rd."

Oh ... I see....maybe I misread the OP ....R2 is actually attempting to go to 3rd ..... I didn't see that when I first read it, or I didn't picture it in my head....

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Actually Mazz, the OP is correct for Fed, delayed dead ball, award R2 third and allow the out at first. You have to remember that Fed considers any obstruction to be unsporting and wants it dealt with punitively.

In OBR, it's a little trickier. I believe if the runner is obstructed before the throw or during the throw then it is type A and award third. If the obstruction is after the out is made then I would let it go. The benefit of the doubt goes to the offense.

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If the obstruction is after the out is made then I would let it go. The benefit of the doubt goes to the offense.

This isn't an issue of doubt. Obstruction cannot occur on a retired runner.

Now, I think the way the OP's question should be framed for OBR is, "Is a play at a base the same as a play on a runner for the purposes of enforcing the penalty of obstruction?" I lean towards no, therefore this is Type B, and a double play.

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When I say benefit of doubt goes to the offense, I mean that if the timing is close between the obstruction and the out at third then default to obstruction. If the out happens, then the contact at short then certainly it is nothing. However, that destinction makes it type A so no out at first.

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If the obstruction is after the out is made then I would let it go. The benefit of the doubt goes to the offense.

This isn't an issue of doubt. Obstruction cannot occur on a retired runner.

Now, I think the way the OP's question should be framed for OBR is, "Is a play at a base the same as a play on a runner for the purposes of enforcing the penalty of obstruction?" I lean towards no, therefore this is Type B, and a double play.

A play at a base is a play on a runner. For example, let's say the same scenario but R2 is only 10 feet when the OBS occurs and the throw occurred as the OBS did. Would you rule Type A OBS then even though it is a force out at 3B and it was a throw to the base? I would hope you would since the runner had a legit chance to beat the throw when he was knocked down. And, the distance is just to illustrate. I don't think distance matters in a case of determining Type A vs. Type B. The only thing that matters is there a play being made to put the runner out at the time OBS occurs. Remember, the definition of play is a legit attempt to put a runner out without mention of how the out has to be occurring.

This is why I think timing is everything and why the throw has to actually occur before or during the OBS to be Type A. If it occurs after the OBS, then it would be Type B since there was not a play at the time OBS occurred.

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Sooooooo...........

In OBR, bases loaded, 1 out???

In all the real world examples of this play that I can invision in my mind, this would be the result in OBR.

Depending on the timing, it is possible in OBR. Or, it could be a DP depending on when the OBS occurred in relation to when the throw occurs.

The only way for this to happen I think is for the out at third to be before the contact or any other so-called hindering of R2 in which case its not going to be obstruction at all since a retired runner cant be obstructed.

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