Interference or not

[blp79]

Had this situation tonight,pretty sure I made the right call but wanted to bring it up.Fed rules,R1 one out,hit and run play Br pops up to F3 who is even with the bag as he is making the catch, R1 is on his horse to get back.R1 tries to slide around F3 but clips him as he is going back in and takes him off his feet,F3 holds on and I got Br on pop out and R1 on Int.The contact happened just as F3 caught the ball. What's your call

Edited May 6, 2010 by blp79

[mstaylor]

I would have to see it but you certainly have a case for it.

[JaxRolo]

Sounds like you got it right.

But what's the call if F3 had dropped the ball?

[maninblack69]

Sounds like the right call to me. Also if F3 had dropped the ball I would think you would still have the DP due to BR INT. I haven't looked at a FED rulebook in a while, but it would make sense to me if it was an easy pop out to F3. Then again I've been out of the game for a while, so I could be totally off base and wrong. :smachhead:

[DirtyDawg]

If the ball was dropped, and in your judgement you think he could have turned the double play had there been no interference, then 2 outs it shall be!

[softballcoach]

Wouldn't IFF be in affect?

[JaxRolo]

Wouldn't IFF be in affect?

No, only R1 on the OP

[softballcoach]

No, only R1 on the OP

Thanks, forgot it had to be a force at 3rd.

[Umpire in Chief]

Sounds like the right call to me. Also if F3 had dropped the ball I would think you would still have the DP due to BR INT.

Looks good to me.

[noumpere]

Had this situation tonight,pretty sure I made the right call but wanted to bring it up.Fed rules,R1 one out,hit and run play Br pops up to F3 who is even with the bag as he is making the catch, R1 is on his horse to get back.R1 tries to slide around F3 but clips him as he is going back in and takes him off his feet,F3 holds on and I got Br on pop out and R1 on Int.The contact happened just as F3 caught the ball. What's your call

I'd likely only have one out (as I envision the play).

Had there been no interference, would F3 have caught the ball and then been able to "double up" R1? I don't see that, so the criterion of "preventing a double play" has not been met.

If I'm seeing the play incorrectly, then I agree with the other.

[JaxRolo]

I'd likely only have one out (as I envision the play).

Had there been no interference, would F3 have caught the ball and then been able to "double up" R1? I don't see that, so the criterion of "preventing a double play" has not been met.

If I'm seeing the play incorrectly, then I agree with the other.

The OP doesn't say how far for 1B F3 is. So we can't really tell if he had time for a DP.

To me I would have to assume that there was time so we have a DP. I give the benefit of the doubt to the defense.

[catoblue]

Along the lines of the criteria for IFF, F3 could be expected to catch the ball with ordinary effort, and R1 prevented him from catching it, I have 2 outs. If dropped, and it was a stretch as to if he might catch it or not, then I might only call R1 out. With the catch, I have BR and R1 out.

[Mr Umpire]

Is there any interpretation to allow for a DP?

From what I know of INT rules, ball is dead immediately. Can't give a catch on a dead ball. Therefore, R1 out for INT and BR on 1B. The only way to give a DP would be if he has caught it already. Then, I still don't have an automatic DP b/c R1 is trying to get to the base after it has been caught. Unless he knocked any of F3's body into 1B after the catch, I have no DP.

Only a catch or INT on R1 and BR on 1B. Can't give a catch on an immediate dead ball. And, this comes from the same logic of not being able to determine if a fly ball is an IF or not. Once the ball is dead, no action can be determined after that for OBR. And, that is what I got from Wendelstedt about IFR and the determining whether or not the ball is foul to see if it met IFR criteria.

So, I have R1 out for INT and BR on 1B if before F3 catches it. Or, BR out on catch and R1 out/safe depending if F3 touches 1B before he does after the catch. Either way, no automatic DP.

From Wendelstedt:

By the way, this is the same for any fly ball where a runner interferes with a fielder: the runner is out and the batter is awarded first base, regardless of where the ball is touched after the interference, or what would have happened on the play. Again, if you are going to see what would have happened, why not call the batter out as well if the ball is eventually caught?

Edited May 6, 2010 by Mr Umpire

[blp79]

The OP doesn't say how far for 1B F3 is. So we can't really tell if he had time for a DP.

To me I would have to assume that there was time so we have a DP. I give the benefit of the doubt to the defense.

F3 was about 2' off the bag when he made the catch.

[blp79]

Is there any interpretation to allow for a DP?

From what I know of INT rules, ball is dead immediately. Can't give a catch on a dead ball. Therefore, R1 out for INT and BR on 1B. The only way to give a DP would be if he has caught it already. Then, I still don't have an automatic DP b/c R1 is trying to get to the base after it has been caught. Unless he knocked any of F3's body into 1B after the catch, I have no DP.

Yes this is a dead ball situation but this was a bang bang play,the contact happened just as f3 is catching the pop up about 2' off the bag.And f3 did end up on top of the bag.I just went with what I saw and got br on pop out an r1 on int,because I felt without the contact F3 had a shot at the dp

[BrianC14]

Along the lines of the criteria for IFF, F3 could be expected to catch the ball with ordinary effort, and R1 prevented him from catching it, I have 2 outs. If dropped, and it was a stretch as to if he might catch it or not, then I might only call R1 out. With the catch, I have BR and R1 out.

Please read the OP again. There's no infield fly on this play. :banghead:

[BrianC14]

Is there any interpretation to allow for a DP?

From what I know of INT rules, ball is dead immediately. Can't give a catch on a dead ball. Therefore, R1 out for INT and BR on 1B. The only way to give a DP would be if he has caught it already. Then, I still don't have an automatic DP b/c R1 is trying to get to the base after it has been caught. Unless he knocked any of F3's body into 1B after the catch, I have no DP.

Yes this is a dead ball situation but this was a bang bang play,the contact happened just as f3 is catching the pop up about 2' off the bag.And f3 did end up on top of the bag.I just went with what I saw and got br on pop out an r1 on int,because I felt without the contact F3 had a shot at the dp

You've got to call it as you see it. It doesn't matter if it's a banger if you're going to call the INT -- if you do call the INT, then the runner is out, and it's an immediate dead ball, and all runners will return. If the catch was made by F3 and THEN the contact by the runner was made, you could end up with a double play, but I don't think I'd be calling INT, but perhaps just an out against the runner

Edited May 7, 2010 by BrianC14

[maninblack69]

Sounds like the right call to me. Also if F3 had dropped the ball I would think you would still have the DP due to BR INT. I haven't looked at a FED rulebook in a while, but it would make sense to me if it was an easy pop out to F3. Then again I've been out of the game for a while, so I could be totally off base and wrong.

Was just reading this again.. BR should be R1.. meant base runner not batter-runner.. :rollinglaugh:

[yawetag]

Is there any interpretation to allow for a DP?

8.4.2F: With all bases occupied and no outs, B4 bunts, which results in a fly ball in the infield (not an infield fly). As R3 advances toward home, he contacts F5, causing him to drop the fly ball. How should the umpire rule? RULING: The ball is dead immediately. R3 is out for interference and B4 is out, since the interference prevented a double play involving R3 and B4.

and this:

8.4.2 COMMENT: The umpire has the authority to declare two runners out when a runner or retired runner illegally interferes and prevents a double play. (it continues, but not relevant to this discussion)

So, in the OP, if the umpire could rule that the INT prevented a DP (which, according to OP, the INT occurred "just as F3 caught the ball"), both should be called out. My ruling of OP is that R1 is out for INT; BR gets 1B.

The only way to give a DP would be if he has caught it already.

This is incorrect for Fed, which is what OP was discussing.

[Mr Umpire]

8.4.2F: With all bases occupied and no outs, B4 bunts, which results in a fly ball in the infield (not an infield fly). As R3 advances toward home, he contacts F5, causing him to drop the fly ball. How should the umpire rule? RULING: The ball is dead immediately. R3 is out for interference and B4 is out, since the interference prevented a double play involving R3 and B4.

and this:

8.4.2 COMMENT: The umpire has the authority to declare two runners out when a runner or retired runner illegally interferes and prevents a double play. (it continues, but not relevant to this discussion)

So, in the OP, if the umpire could rule that the INT prevented a DP (which, according to OP, the INT occurred "just as F3 caught the ball"), both should be called out. My ruling of OP is that R1 is out for INT; BR gets 1B.

This is incorrect for Fed, which is what OP was discussing.

OK. But, in this ruling, R3 was going away from the base and my guess would be a considerable distance from 3B. Thus, a candidate for a DP. In the OP, R1 is returning and is, apparently, less than 2' away.

Depending on when it occurred, I have R1 out on INT or BR out on a catch. It doesn't sound like there was any chance of a DP unless R1 knocks F3 into the base after he catches the ball but before R1 touched 1B.

If the ball is not under control yet, R1 is guilty of INT and BR gets 1B. That would be my ruling from the description of the OP. The only way I would give a DP on INT is if F3 is standing on top of 1B when he was knocked off his feet.

So, I have INT, R1 out, BR gets 1B. Or, if it occurred after the catch, then I have BR out on catch and whatever happens, happens. Even in FED rules.

[yawetag]

OK. But, in this ruling, R3 was going away from the base and my guess would be a considerable distance from 3B. Thus, a candidate for a DP. In the OP, R1 is returning and is, apparently, less than 2' away.

Depending on when it occurred, I have R1 out on INT or BR out on a catch. It doesn't sound like there was any chance of a DP unless R1 knocks F3 into the base after he catches the ball but before R1 touched 1B.

If the ball is not under control yet, R1 is guilty of INT and BR gets 1B. That would be my ruling from the description of the OP. The only way I would give a DP on INT is if F3 is standing on top of 1B when he was knocked off his feet.

So, I have INT, R1 out, BR gets 1B. Or, if it occurred after the catch, then I have BR out on catch and whatever happens, happens. Even in FED rules.

I agree with everything you say. However, I was replying to "Is there any interpretation to allow for a DP?" I assumed you meant in general, which is what I was replying to.

[Mr Umpire]

I agree with everything you say. However, I was replying to "Is there any interpretation to allow for a DP?" I assumed you meant in general, which is what I was replying to.

I did and understood what you were doing. I just wanted to clarify why I still don't have a DP even with the FED ruling.

[PeteBooth]

Had this situation tonight,pretty sure I made the right call but wanted to bring it up.Fed rules,R1 one out,hit and run play Br pops up to F3 who is even with the bag as he is making the catch, R1 is on his horse to get back.R1 tries to slide around F3 but clips him as he is going back in and takes him off his feet,F3 holds on and I got Br on pop out and R1 on Int.The contact happened just as F3 caught the ball. What's your call

F3 holding on to or dropping the ball is moot in your OP.

When you rule interference the ball is immediately dead at that point.

Therefore, as soon as you judged interference on the part of R1 the call is

1. TIME

2. That's Interference

3. R1 is out

4. BR to first base

UNLESS you felt that the defense would have had a "no brainer" DP which from the OP doesn't sound so because R1 was diving back to first base. If R1 had NOT interfered the defense would only had one out anyway.

The point is: for most interference calls do not "wait and see" the ball is immediately dead so what ever happened afterwards is moot.

Pete Booth