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Jeff, pull it back, disagree but keep it under control.Things are different at the MLB level. I agree that at the levels we work, that would never fly. They also have a fairly long leash and if he got near it, no matter his direction, he has to go. I don't think any of us would advocate that but we have seen it done a couple of times over the past couple of years.

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I played that clip for three of my assignors (HS, JUCO, MSBL, Connie Mack, etc.). All three frowned upon the umpire's performance. One guy said that if an umpire handled a similar situation in that fashion, he would not be getting any more games. And that's at our level. This is the big leagues for crying out loud!

yep, it is the big leagues, they can do that up there.. the game is much more different than you guys think.. I get to ask some of these questions, and they tell me, it is not as it is made out to be...for once, why are we not sticking up for the umpire, instead we are quick to bash him.. he is in a place that many of us only dream about..

Sorry, but I've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades, and I'm not "you guys" imagining what it's like. I happen to umpire men's leagues, high school and college, but I worked in the big leagues long before that, and in my educated view, that was unprofessional.

I can't blindly support something or someone unless they're blood. I just can't. And I'm not ignoring this guy's unprofessional display just to play like some kind of brother to all umpires, especially when his behavior makes us all look bad.

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Jeff, pull it back, disagree but keep it under control.Things are different at the MLB level. I agree that at the levels we work, that would never fly. They also have a fairly long leash and if he got near it, no matter his direction, he has to go. I don't think any of us would advocate that but we have seen it done a couple of times over the past couple of years.

Michael, ...every time he posts it's a snide remark.....it's ridiculous

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Jeff, pull it back, disagree but keep it under control.Things are different at the MLB level. I agree that at the levels we work, that would never fly. They also have a fairly long leash and if he got near it, no matter his direction, he has to go. I don't think any of us would advocate that but we have seen it done a couple of times over the past couple of years.

Michael, ...every time he posts it's a snide remark.....it's ridiculous

Jeff,

I have found that when a poster has nothing of value or interest to say, it is usually best not to acknowledge or respond to them in any way.

When you let them "get your goat", it only encourages them to clutter the board with more of their dreck.

As in all things, do as you think best.

JM

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I played that clip for three of my assignors (HS, JUCO, MSBL, Connie Mack, etc.). All three frowned upon the umpire's performance. One guy said that if an umpire handled a similar situation in that fashion, he would not be getting any more games. And that's at our level. This is the big leagues for crying out loud!

yep, it is the big leagues, they can do that up there.. the game is much more different than you guys think.. I get to ask some of these questions, and they tell me, it is not as it is made out to be...for once, why are we not sticking up for the umpire, instead we are quick to bash him.. he is in a place that many of us only dream about..

Sorry, but I've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades, and I'm not "you guys" imagining what it's like. I happen to umpire men's leagues, high school and college, but I worked in the big leagues long before that, and in my educated view, that was unprofessional.

I can't blindly support something or someone unless they're blood. I just can't. And I'm not ignoring this guy's unprofessional display just to play like some kind of brother to all umpires, especially when his behavior makes us all look bad.

Kevin, I don't think anybody is saying what he did was the best way to handle it. I think we agree that it looked bad and would have been better if he had combined it with brushing the plate. The thing is, it has happened several times over the past couple of years so evidently there was more than "Where are you going for dinner?" Once he gets to a point in a conversation then a face to face will happen. Now the problem is the announcers just went way over the top bashing for putting a stop to the conversation. It is true that because it was an unusual mechanic it looked bad.

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... I think we agree that it looked bad and would have been better if he had combined it with brushing the plate. The thing is, it has happened several times over the past couple of years so evidently there was more than "Where are you going for dinner?" Once he gets to a point in a conversation then a face to face will happen. Now the problem is the announcers just went way over the top bashing for putting a stop to the conversation. It is true that because it was an unusual mechanic it looked bad.

I disagree. The media has recently started "catching on" to brushing the plate. By and large, they seem to think brushing the plate is unnecessary, we do it just "for show." They applaud when an umpire brushes the plate to give a catcher more time to recover from a foul ball, but they criticize an umpire who brushes the plate and then has a tough conversation with a catcher or batter. In lay-minds, brushing the plate is a crutch umpires use to accomplish an underlying mission, which in this case, would be to discipline the catcher. According to the pseudo-fan, brushing the plate is never done solely for the purpose of removing dirt.

Again, it's all about perception. If Martin is baiting Schrieber (which I contend in the article I posted above), Schrieber has to resist the temptation to fall for the bait by stepping out in front of Martin, even to "brush the plate." In keeping with perception and appearances, Schrieber should take the higher road, let Martin drop into his crouch, and talk from there. Get the batter to back out/etc. to give some time to finish up with Martin. If he's getting run, do it quietly so the catcher is the one who loses his mind and has decorum-breaking reaction. Then the ejection is justified in the minds of observers.

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... I think we agree that it looked bad and would have been better if he had combined it with brushing the plate. The thing is, it has happened several times over the past couple of years so evidently there was more than "Where are you going for dinner?" Once he gets to a point in a conversation then a face to face will happen. Now the problem is the announcers just went way over the top bashing for putting a stop to the conversation. It is true that because it was an unusual mechanic it looked bad.

I disagree. The media has recently started "catching on" to brushing the plate. By and large, they seem to think brushing the plate is unnecessary, we do it just "for show." They applaud when an umpire brushes the plate to give a catcher more time to recover from a foul ball, but they criticize an umpire who brushes the plate and then has a tough conversation with a catcher or batter. In lay-minds, brushing the plate is a crutch umpires use to accomplish an underlying mission, which in this case, would be to discipline the catcher. According to the pseudo-fan, brushing the plate is never done solely for the purpose of removing dirt.

Again, it's all about perception. If Martin is baiting Schrieber (which I contend in the article I posted above), Schrieber has to resist the temptation to fall for the bait by stepping out in front of Martin, even to "brush the plate." In keeping with perception and appearances, Schrieber should take the higher road, let Martin drop into his crouch, and talk from there. Get the batter to back out/etc. to give some time to finish up with Martin. If he's getting run, do it quietly so the catcher is the one who loses his mind and has decorum-breaking reaction. Then the ejection is justified in the minds of observers.

I don't disagree with you at all that the way you're suggesting it should have been handled. I really like the idea and think it's a great way to handle what happened. That said, I wonder just how much an MLB umpire worries about justifying one of his ejections in the minds of the fans. My guess is that they could care less what the fans think.

Tim.

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Sorry, but I've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades, and I'm not "you guys" imagining what it's like. I happen to umpire men's leagues, high school and college, but I worked in the big leagues long before that, and in my educated view, that was unprofessional.

You know how lots of people on here complain about how clueless the TV announcers are? Many of them have played, coached, managed, and broadcasted for some time. They've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades. I wouldn't say time spent around baseball really has much to do with knowing how it is officiated.

You're such a jocksniffer Cactus. GOD FORBID anyone criticize a pro umpire ?!?!? THE SHAME OF IT ALL!! My God dude .... You must have quite a few pro games under your belt. You certaintly act like it....:jerkit:

Essentially Finnerty said it is wrong to do that in my HS game so it must be wrong to do that in a big league game. It's not a good argument. HS and MLB are different. In amateur baseball you have to suck up to the teams; if they don't like you they might complain to the assignor, you get less games with that school or less games overall... That's not how it works in professional baseball, you get your schedule from the league and you go work your game every night; you don't have to worry about making the managers happy.

In amateur baseball when the PU comes out in front of the catcher like that the manager may not like it, especially when the catcher ends up getting ejected. So now he's going to call the assignor and make problems. So now, just like Finnerty said, the assignor is not giving the PU more games. He might be the best umpire around but he doesn't shy away from trouble. The assignor would prefer games officiated not as well than games with trouble. The AD doesn't complain that an umpire doesn't shade runners well, he does complain about ejections and types of trouble.

Professional baseball is different. The PU can work without worrying about what the teams think of him. If someone needs to be ejected then they are ejected. In this situation the catcher was way out of line. The PU came in front to make it obvious to everyone that the catcher was way out of line. They continued to talk. The catcher could have ended it but he kept going and got ejected. I say the ejection looks very good. The catcher had plenty of time to shut up and was probably warned to do so. The manager isn't going to like it that the PU is arguing with one of his players, managers never like that, but in professional baseball pleasing the managers is not your goal.

I wonder just how much an MLB umpire worries about justifying one of his ejections in the minds of the fans. My guess is that they could care less what the fans think.

You're right. The only thing worried about is making sure you got the call right before ejecting so you can get the most points on the Left Field Corner.

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

Yes, F2 did turn his head. Watch again at 1:56. Yes, the announcer has no clue b/c he is under the impression that F2 can argue all game as long as he doesn't turn around. Umpires are suppose to just stay back there and listen to it as long as F2 doesn't turn around. F2 is at fault and cowardice to hide behind the mask and use this "As long as I don't turn around" weak excuse to argue calls.

Just b/c Girardi didn't get tossed is NO indication of anything. He didn't say the magic word to get EJ. He wanted an explanation. How is THAT an indication for anything?

I'm really really tired of this "umpire can do no wrong" and "it's always the players fault" bullSH*#.

Have you checked--the site is called umpire empire :)

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Sorry, but I've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades, and I'm not "you guys" imagining what it's like. I happen to umpire men's leagues, high school and college, but I worked in the big leagues long before that, and in my educated view, that was unprofessional.

You know how lots of people on here complain about how clueless the TV announcers are? Many of them have played, coached, managed, and broadcasted for some time. They've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades. I wouldn't say time spent around baseball really has much to do with knowing how it is officiated.

You're such a jocksniffer Cactus. GOD FORBID anyone criticize a pro umpire ?!?!? THE SHAME OF IT ALL!! My God dude .... You must have quite a few pro games under your belt. You certaintly act like it....:jerkit:

Essentially Finnerty said it is wrong to do that in my HS game so it must be wrong to do that in a big league game. It's not a good argument. HS and MLB are different. In amateur baseball you have to suck up to the teams; if they don't like you they might complain to the assignor, you get less games with that school or less games overall... That's not how it works in professional baseball, you get your schedule from the league and you go work your game every night; you don't have to worry about making the managers happy.

In amateur baseball when the PU comes out in front of the catcher like that the manager may not like it, especially when the catcher ends up getting ejected. So now he's going to call the assignor and make problems. So now, just like Finnerty said, the assignor is not giving the PU more games. He might be the best umpire around but he doesn't shy away from trouble. The assignor would prefer games officiated not as well than games with trouble. The AD doesn't complain that an umpire doesn't shade runners well, he does complain about ejections and types of trouble.

Professional baseball is different. The PU can work without worrying about what the teams think of him. If someone needs to be ejected then they are ejected. In this situation the catcher was way out of line. The PU came in front to make it obvious to everyone that the catcher was way out of line. They continued to talk. The catcher could have ended it but he kept going and got ejected. I say the ejection looks very good. The catcher had plenty of time to shut up and was probably warned to do so. The manager isn't going to like it that the PU is arguing with one of his players, managers never like that, but in professional baseball pleasing the managers is not your goal.

I wonder just how much an MLB umpire worries about justifying one of his ejections in the minds of the fans. My guess is that they could care less what the fans think.

You're right. The only thing worried about is making sure you got the call right before ejecting so you can get the most points on the Left Field Corner.

I agree. We have to worry about how it looks and I hate that. Contracts are on the line when the coaches don't like a particular umpire or group. In the pros, what contract is on the line? The umpires went on strike and are still calling the games. Do that at the amateur level and see what happens. Your association is replaced by the next tomorrow. I hate perception but we have to deal with it. The MLB umpires don't and can do this with some recourse possibly but nothing as bad as we have to. We lose games and pay if we do something like this and that affects us much more than it does a MLB umpire.

For amateur baseball and to other umpires, it looks really bad and should not be handled this way. But, for MLB, it is a "show" and whatever gets things going and raises MLB into people's eyes works for them. I can agree to that. But, regardless of what level of ball it is, it still can always be handled in a much better way, even in MLB.

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While I agree that we should strive to make our ejections "look good", I don't know that I buy that ejections that are perceived to be "bad" will endanger a contract or a particular umpire, *provided* that all umpires in a group know how to properly draft an ejection report to reflect the reality of the events leading up to, and including the ejection. An eloquently written report should trump an emotional manager's account of an ejection.

Tim.

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While I agree that we should strive to make our ejections "look good", I don't know that I buy that ejections that are perceived to be "bad" will endanger a contract or a particular umpire, *provided* that all umpires in a group know how to properly draft an ejection report to reflect the reality of the events leading up to, and including the ejection. An eloquently written report should trump an emotional manager's account of an ejection.

Tim.

Agreed Tim, a well written report is important. As they said on Dragnet,"Just the facts." Do not interject opinions of what a coach did earlier unless it bears directly on the ejection. The less said the better, quotes are best and don't embelish.

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Jeff, pull it back, disagree but keep it under control.Things are different at the MLB level. I agree that at the levels we work, that would never fly. They also have a fairly long leash and if he got near it, no matter his direction, he has to go. I don't think any of us would advocate that but we have seen it done a couple of times over the past couple of years.

Michael, ...every time he posts it's a snide remark.....it's ridiculous

Jeff,

I have found that when a poster has nothing of value or interest to say, it is usually best not to acknowledge or respond to them in any way.

When you let them "get your goat", it only encourages them to clutter the board with more of their dreck.

As in all things, do as you think best.

JM

Searching for the "IGNORE" button JM, ...thanks for the reply, and I appreciate your candor.

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An eloquently written report should trump an emotional manager's account of an ejection.

It should but it doesn't. As sad as it is the officials are out there to make the teams happy. If they're not happy with you they are going to hire someone else to work their games.

The assignor has two options....he can send officials who will uphold the integrity of the game (call the game by the rules, eject when needed...) or he can assign officials who will make the teams happy (ignore things which would make the team mad, never eject, rather just hope the guy eventually stops arguing then applaud yourself for keeping the guy in the game). The assignor is getting paid to assign these games. If the teams don't like the officials he sends they are going to find someone else to assign. What do you think the assignor is going to do? Think about a new official...he comes in and realizes that he has to make people happy to move up. Eventually this guy becomes the assignor. What do you think he is going to want the guys that work for him to do? It is a never ending cycle.

Look at this discussion http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/5265-how-does-he-stay Several posters who have stories about being told that they have too many ejections. Just a few days ago there was a discussion on here about a college football game where a coach came 20 yards onto the field to argue but no foul was called on him. It's the same thing. Think about what would happen if that was in the NFL. It is laughable to think that anyone would even come on the field to argue in a NFL game. But amateur sports are different; the coach may be way out of line but if you can calm him down eventually and avoid ejecting him (making him mad) then that is that matters. Of course there are exceptions to this. Some areas/assignors do things the right way but that is very uncommon.

This basically sums it up....let's say you have a crazy ejection. Afterwards the manager ends up getting in an argument with your boss. In amateur baseball your boss is the assignor. If the manager and the assignor get in a fight, the manager is going to find a new assignor. In professional baseball your boss is the league president. If the manager and the league president get in a fight then manager is going to get fined, suspended, or banned from the league. As you can see, who holds the power is very different in amateur and professional baseball....which goes back to Finnerty's point this video. If a HS umpire in his area did something like this he wouldn't get games, that is the way it has to be because of who is actually in charge and has the power. Professional baseball is different and you can actually uphold the integrity of the game instead of making people happy.

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An eloquently written report should trump an emotional manager's account of an ejection.

It should but it doesn't. As sad as it is the officials are out there to make the teams happy. If they're not happy with you they are going to hire someone else to work their games.

But amateur sports are different; the coach may be way out of line but if you can calm him down eventually and avoid ejecting him (making him mad) then that is that matters. Of course there are exceptions to this. Some areas/assignors do things the right way but that is very uncommon.

This basically sums it up....let's say you have a crazy ejection. Afterwards the manager ends up getting in an argument with your boss. In amateur baseball your boss is the assignor. If the manager and the assignor get in a fight, the manager is going to find a new assignor. In professional baseball your boss is the league president. If the manager and the league president get in a fight then manager is going to get fined, suspended, or banned from the league. As you can see, who holds the power is very different in amateur and professional baseball....which goes back to Finnerty's point this video. If a HS umpire in his area did something like this he wouldn't get games, that is the way it has to be because of who is actually in charge and has the power. Professional baseball is different and you can actually uphold the integrity of the game instead of making people happy.

Perhaps ours is a situation that is the exception rather than the norm. We have one association that assigns HS games and one association that assigns local leagues other than LL in this area. I can see a member of one of the associations being sat down and talked to should they have an excessive amount of game management issues that were leading to numerous ejections, but it wouldn't change how our assignor goes through our roster to assign games. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't believe managers have enough input to seriously effect the way we're given games. Tournaments assignments are different because the IHSAA does give evaluations from the schools consideration during post season games.

Tim.

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Sorry, but I've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades, and I'm not "you guys" imagining what it's like. I happen to umpire men's leagues, high school and college, but I worked in the big leagues long before that, and in my educated view, that was unprofessional.

You know how lots of people on here complain about how clueless the TV announcers are? Many of them have played, coached, managed, and broadcasted for some time. They've been around big-league baseball in several capacities for decades. I wouldn't say time spent around baseball really has much to do with knowing how it is officiated.

You're such a jocksniffer Cactus. GOD FORBID anyone criticize a pro umpire ?!?!? THE SHAME OF IT ALL!! My God dude .... You must have quite a few pro games under your belt. You certaintly act like it....:jerkit:

Essentially Finnerty said it is wrong to do that in my HS game so it must be wrong to do that in a big league game. It's not a good argument. HS and MLB are different. In amateur baseball you have to suck up to the teams; if they don't like you they might complain to the assignor, you get less games with that school or less games overall... That's not how it works in professional baseball, you get your schedule from the league and you go work your game every night; you don't have to worry about making the managers happy.

In amateur baseball when the PU comes out in front of the catcher like that the manager may not like it, especially when the catcher ends up getting ejected. So now he's going to call the assignor and make problems. So now, just like Finnerty said, the assignor is not giving the PU more games. He might be the best umpire around but he doesn't shy away from trouble. The assignor would prefer games officiated not as well than games with trouble. The AD doesn't complain that an umpire doesn't shade runners well, he does complain about ejections and types of trouble.

Professional baseball is different. The PU can work without worrying about what the teams think of him. If someone needs to be ejected then they are ejected. In this situation the catcher was way out of line. The PU came in front to make it obvious to everyone that the catcher was way out of line. They continued to talk. The catcher could have ended it but he kept going and got ejected. I say the ejection looks very good. The catcher had plenty of time to shut up and was probably warned to do so. The manager isn't going to like it that the PU is arguing with one of his players, managers never like that, but in professional baseball pleasing the managers is not your goal.

I wonder just how much an MLB umpire worries about justifying one of his ejections in the minds of the fans. My guess is that they could care less what the fans think.

You're right. The only thing worried about is making sure you got the call right before ejecting so you can get the most points on the Left Field Corner.

WOW!

You're a real piece of work. Do you really believe that you're that bright and the rest of us are that idiotic? Where do you get off?

Don't take a statement of mine that is simple to comprehend, apply your myopic, egocentric, biased viewpoint and make some interpretation that twists what I wrote. The point (and not the essential point) is that if such an uproarious act as this is unprofessional and intolerable at the lower levels, then it is even more glaringly unprofessional at the major league level. How could you have missed the point so badly? How could anyone?

Closed-mindedness and bias and poor reading comprehension skills are characteristics that are not very conducive to competent or effective umpiring. You should work on correcting those weaknesses.

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Groups that reprimand umpires for justifiable ejections are not doing anyone any good. If you have an umpire making bad ejections then he needs to be helped with his game management. This is why good ejection reports are important.

As far as this thread itself. I think it is a good discussion overall. The personal stuff needs to stop or it could cause the thread to be closed. I would rather not do that, nor would any other mod here, that is not the way here, but neither is name calling and other sniping.

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Groups that reprimand umpires for justifiable ejections are not doing anyone any good. If you have an umpire making bad ejections then he needs to be helped with his game management. This is why good ejection reports are important.

As far as this thread itself. I think it is a good discussion overall. The personal stuff needs to stop or it could cause the thread to be closed. I would rather not do that, nor would any other mod here, that is not the way here, but neither is name calling and other sniping.

I'd like to see this kept open as well, Mike. It could be a great discussion on the nuances of professional -vs- amature baseball game management. I'd also love to see a discussion on how to write a solid ejection report as well. Maybe I'll head to another section here and start one.

Tim.

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WOW!

You're a real piece of work. Do you really believe that you're that bright and the rest of us are that idiotic? Where do you get off?

Don't take a statement of mine that is simple to comprehend, apply your myopic, egocentric, biased viewpoint and make some interpretation that twists what I wrote. The point (and not the essential point) is that if such an uproarious act as this is unprofessional and intolerable at the lower levels, then it is even more glaringly unprofessional at the major league level. How could you have missed the point so badly? How could anyone?

Closed-mindedness and bias and poor reading comprehension skills are characteristics that are not very conducive to competent or effective umpiring. You should work on correcting those weaknesses.

If it makes you feel better, I read your post the same way. He's not the one with the problems--you are.

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The point (and not the essential point) is that if such an uproarious act as this is unprofessional and intolerable at the lower levels, then it is even more glaringly unprofessional at the major league level. How could you have missed the point so badly? How could anyone?

According to you:

This act + amateur baseball = Intolerable

Therefore...

This act + MLB = Intolerable

You seem to forget that

Amateur baseball ≠ MLB

What is acceptable in the lower levels of professional baseball is a lot different than your HS games. What is acceptable in MLB is a lot different than the lower levels of professional baseball. Everyone else on here seems to understand that. It is one thing for you to say that your vast MLB experience says that this isn't acceptable in MLB. It is crazy to say that it isn't acceptable in your HS games so it must not be acceptable in MLB. HS and MLB are a tad different.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't believe managers have enough input to seriously effect the way we're given games.

Do the schools get to choose who assigns the games? I know in some areas there will be one association per county (or something like that) and they assign every game in the county.

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The assignor is appointed by the association VP. I'm not saying there aren't politics involved, because like any place else, there are. But I don't see a school administrator black balling an official unless there were serious and repetitive problems. If that were to happen, the school administrator has the option of requesting a particular official is not assigned to their games again in a given season.

Tim.

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The point (and not the essential point) is that if such an uproarious act as this is unprofessional and intolerable at the lower levels, then it is even more glaringly unprofessional at the major league level. How could you have missed the point so badly? How could anyone?

According to you:

This act + amateur baseball = Intolerable

Therefore...

This act + MLB = Intolerable

You seem to forget that

Amateur baseball ≠ MLB

What is acceptable in the lower levels of professional baseball is a lot different than your HS games. What is acceptable in MLB is a lot different than the lower levels of professional baseball. Everyone else on here seems to understand that. It is one thing for you to say that your vast MLB experience says that this isn't acceptable in MLB. It is crazy to say that it isn't acceptable in your HS games so it must not be acceptable in MLB. HS and MLB are a tad different.

Maybe I'm naive, but I don't believe managers have enough input to seriously effect the way we're given games.

Do the schools get to choose who assigns the games? I know in some areas there will be one association per county (or something like that) and they assign every game in the county.

Okay, I give.

Standing over a professional catcher and glowering down at him and baiting him is professional umpiring, according to you.

That's why I come here: to learn new things like that from masters like you.

Thank you so much.

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