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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

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A few commenters on my site pointed out that MLBAM doesn't adequately show the circumstances surrounding the ejection. What happens is after ball four to Zobrist (a borderline pitch which pitch f/x shows as a ball), Martin goes out to the mound to talk to Hughes, after all, his pitcher has walked two consecutive batters.

When Martin comes back to the plate, he can be seen talking to Schrieber, calmly at first, and then slightly more animated. Martin appears to get a parting shot in, and as Schrieber is responding, Martin turns around and drops into his crouch. In other words, it looks like Schrieber is still talking to Martin, yet Martin isn't listening and figuratively walks away from the conversation. The field mics then pick up Schrieber walking out to face Martin and saying, "What's that supposed to mean?" Martin says something quietly enough where the mics don't pick it up, and Schrieber says "you're outta here," with the mechanic. Martin responds, "are you kidding me?" to which Schrieber says, "No, I'm not kidding you." If we're going with baiting, it looks like Martin baited Schrieber into a poor perception ejection. Once Schrieber came out to stand on top of home plate, he was committed to the ejection, and it is poorly perceived because it looks like Martin hasn't done anything wrong.

As umpires and officials, a lot of what we do is based on perception. We have to sometimes be part magician. I deal more with penalties when I officiate basketball because we have the intermediate technical foul, as opposed to only the full-on ejection. When it comes to coaches or players chirping, they usually like to get their pot shots in when we're by the table on or after a report, as a trail table side, or anytime we're standing near 'em. Because of the proximity, the coach or player can effortlessly say something that shouldn't be said, something T-worthy. However, that's a bad T. A better T would be if the calling official takes a few steps back, even goes opposite to force the coach to step onto the court or player to leave his position and have to shout to be heard. Then, everyone knows what just happened and the T is a positively perceived T. That kind of long distance T is a good T.

In baseball, it's very similar. If you want a good ejection, it has to be a positively perceived one. For it to be positively perceived, you can't eject from the crouch because the crouch is routine - a catcher has to crouch to receive almost every pitch (sans intent ball), that's how the entire game works. Ejecting someone for what is perceived as a routine action will always be a poorly perceived ejection. Eject a catcher while he's standing, turned away from his pitcher; that's going to be a more positively perceived ejection.

One of my commenters wrote that there can be two ways to better handle it. First, of course, is to eject the guy while he's still standing and walking towards you. However, the even better way is to fight fire with fire. If the catcher wants to say something inappropriate in a casual tone from the crouch, you can administer penalties casually from the crouch. Casually tell the catcher he's gone... if the catcher is emotional enough to have stepped over the line to question your integrity/make it personal/etc, then that same catcher likely is emotional enough to completely lose his sense of decorum upon being told (albeit calmy) that he's ejected. Once the catcher is up, has wheeled around and is facing you while appearing animated, execute the ejection mechanic. That is more positively perceived than you going out in front of the catcher to talk down to him while he's in the crouch. The idea is that when the catcher is emotionally at a 10, you still have to be at your emotional baseline. Don't let F2 dictate how you handle yourself behind the plate.

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I really cant say without seeing/knowing the entire circumstance. Gil gave some insight. I have to believe this was something that had been going on even longer than just the prior walk.

Yes this is an ugly EJ.

Put yourself in Schrieber's shoes what are your alternatives? You can't let Martin go on mouthing off. This is MLB in the 21st century even if the FYC is in your repertoire it is not an option. You could also wait him out and try to bait him into the aggressor... but that could backfire. As I see it, both ends of the stick are dirty if you are Schrieber.

I also read Martin says he just asked if he had stretched before the game...

Really??? I didn't fall off the turnip truck and am not buying that.

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This is actually a lot simpler than everyone is making it out to be.

First, PS should have never come around in front of Martin. Just have the conversation as if nothing is going on so no one else knows. When he hears the magic words, and decides to run Martin, here's what he should've done IMO:

"Russ, you're done." But make no EJ mechanic (for the time being).

F2 cannot see what is going on and can only hear you running him. So he will turn around and get in your face to get his money's worth. At which point, you follow through with the EJ mechanic. To everyone else in the ballpark, F2 just blew his lid and the PU had no choice but to run him. Only 2 people know what actually happened. There was no baiting and no violation of protocol.

Same situation applies to the coach who comes out to argue, goes to leave, and drops the F-U to get run as he is walking away so it makes the umpire look like he's being over aggressive. Run him but don't signal it until he returns, thinking he's about to get his money's worth.

Players and coaches try to make us look like ass clowns all the time. We are the savvy, better looking, more intelligent individuals. Why not turn the tables on them once in a while?

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I really cant say without seeing/knowing the entire circumstance. Gil gave some insight. I have to believe this was something that had been going on even longer than just the prior walk.

Yes this is an ugly EJ.

Put yourself in Schrieber's shoes what are your alternatives? You can't let Martin go on mouthing off. This is MLB in the 21st century even if the FYC is in your repertoire it is not an option. You could also wait him out and try to bait him into the aggressor... but that could backfire. As I see it, both ends of the stick are dirty if you are Schrieber.

I also read Martin says he just asked if he had stretched before the game...

Really??? I didn't fall off the turnip truck and am not buying that.

So your position is that the player's version is always false?

The report I heard was that the conversation was

"Did you stretch today?"

"What?"

"Did you stretch today?"

"What's that mean?

"Well, you're a little tight."

One that made it onto TV several years back due to the proximity mics was from a catcher who had just been called out on strikes. "That pitch was outside. If you're goung to call that a strike I want it for my guys too." No EJ.

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

Yes, F2 did turn his head. Watch again at 1:56. Yes, the announcer has no clue b/c he is under the impression that F2 can argue all game as long as he doesn't turn around. Umpires are suppose to just stay back there and listen to it as long as F2 doesn't turn around. F2 is at fault and cowardice to hide behind the mask and use this "As long as I don't turn around" weak excuse to argue calls.

Just b/c Girardi didn't get tossed is NO indication of anything. He didn't say the magic word to get EJ. He wanted an explanation. How is THAT an indication for anything?

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I also read Martin says he just asked if he had stretched before the game...

Really??? I didn't fall off the turnip truck and am not buying that.

So your position is that the player's version is always false?

What's wrong with that? Your position, although not an absolute one mathematically, is generally that everything is always the umpire's fault, and that player's are just hard-working misunderstood Regular Guys. And on more than one forum. So there you go.

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I played that clip for three of my assignors (HS, JUCO, MSBL, Connie Mack, etc.). All three frowned upon the umpire's performance. One guy said that if an umpire handled a similar situation in that fashion, he would not be getting any more games. And that's at our level. This is the big leagues for crying out loud!

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I don't think any are condoning what the umpire did. But, to hold him as being solely responsible is ridiculous. It takes 2 to tango. If F2 keeps his mouth shut on what appears to be an obvious ball, then none of this even comes close to happening.

Also, remember, this is the MLB. Much of it is for a show and I think the umpires either forget how to handle things properly for the "show" or don't care b/c they don't have to worry too much about assignments being taken away. I don't know but the biggest problem is too many local umpires use them as a basis. And, they wonder why things turn out worse at the amateur level (within their association and with the teams involved) when it doesn't turn out that way at the professional level. This is where the biggest issue lies IMO. Not with MLB umpires doing it, but with amateur baseball umpires mimicking it.

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

Yes, F2 did turn his head. Watch again at 1:56. Yes, the announcer has no clue b/c he is under the impression that F2 can argue all game as long as he doesn't turn around. Umpires are suppose to just stay back there and listen to it as long as F2 doesn't turn around. F2 is at fault and cowardice to hide behind the mask and use this "As long as I don't turn around" weak excuse to argue calls.

Just b/c Girardi didn't get tossed is NO indication of anything. He didn't say the magic word to get EJ. He wanted an explanation. How is THAT an indication for anything?

I'm really really tired of this "umpire can do no wrong" and "it's always the players fault" bullSH*#.

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

Yes, F2 did turn his head. Watch again at 1:56. Yes, the announcer has no clue b/c he is under the impression that F2 can argue all game as long as he doesn't turn around. Umpires are suppose to just stay back there and listen to it as long as F2 doesn't turn around. F2 is at fault and cowardice to hide behind the mask and use this "As long as I don't turn around" weak excuse to argue calls.

Just b/c Girardi didn't get tossed is NO indication of anything. He didn't say the magic word to get EJ. He wanted an explanation. How is THAT an indication for anything?

Gee - he had a runner on first and turned his head to check him out. What a surprise.

And a guy that spent 15 years in MLB diesn't have a clue about discussipon with umpires. Priceless.

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Gentle reminder that when you're relying on MLBAM's video clip, you're not seeing the entire play.

MLBAM doesn't adequately show the circumstances surrounding the ejection. What happens is after ball four to Zobrist (a borderline pitch which pitch f/x shows as a ball), Martin goes out to the mound to talk to Hughes, after all, his pitcher has walked two consecutive batters.

When Martin comes back to the plate, he can be seen talking to Schrieber, calmly at first, and then slightly more animated. Martin appears to get a parting shot in, and as Schrieber is responding, Martin turns around and drops into his crouch.

That's when MLBAM's video highlight picks up the action.

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

Yes, F2 did turn his head. Watch again at 1:56. Yes, the announcer has no clue b/c he is under the impression that F2 can argue all game as long as he doesn't turn around. Umpires are suppose to just stay back there and listen to it as long as F2 doesn't turn around. F2 is at fault and cowardice to hide behind the mask and use this "As long as I don't turn around" weak excuse to argue calls.

Just b/c Girardi didn't get tossed is NO indication of anything. He didn't say the magic word to get EJ. He wanted an explanation. How is THAT an indication for anything?

I'm really really tired of this "umpire can do no wrong" and "it's always the players fault" bullSH*#.

And I'm tired of the "Rats can do no wrong" attitude as well. None of the umpires here have said the umpire handled it correctly. So, none of us fall into the "umpire can do no wrong" BS you referred to. Everyone said it looked bad.

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Yeah. He could have not given him a chance to shut his mouth. He could have done it as soon as F2 turned his head and complained. Who knows what was said or how long. The only way to know that is if one or both tell and they are honest. We know how rats can be. He gave F2 a chance to shut up and I guess F2 didn't take it.

No matter what, this isn't going to look good. Why? B/c the rat is too coward to turn around and say what he was saying. He knows it looks better for him not to. Just listen to the know-nothings talk about how no one knew anything was going on. I guess it is OK to listen to F2 argue about balls and strikes for 9 innings as long as he doesn't turn around. Whatever. If F2 doesn't want to be EJ, then he needs to STFU and play the game. The pitch was high.

Martin didn't turn his head. Ump walked around from behind the plate and faced off Martin. Martin didn't even get up from the crouch. No visible "show-up" which is what most of y'all say is the no-no.

The "no nothing" commentator was Ken Singleton. He's was around the plate for numerouse conversations for 15 big league seasons, 2,082 games, and about 8680 plate appearances. He has a clue.

Guess what - sometimes it's the umpire that is more at fault.

Notice that Giurardi didn't get tossed for arguing the EJ for a long long time?

Yes, F2 did turn his head. Watch again at 1:56. Yes, the announcer has no clue b/c he is under the impression that F2 can argue all game as long as he doesn't turn around. Umpires are suppose to just stay back there and listen to it as long as F2 doesn't turn around. F2 is at fault and cowardice to hide behind the mask and use this "As long as I don't turn around" weak excuse to argue calls.

Just b/c Girardi didn't get tossed is NO indication of anything. He didn't say the magic word to get EJ. He wanted an explanation. How is THAT an indication for anything?

Gee - he had a runner on first and turned his head to check him out. What a surprise.

And a guy that spent 15 years in MLB diesn't have a clue about discussipon with umpires. Priceless.

Well, we always know where you stand on these kind of issues. Never miss a chance to bash umpires. And, here is your "Rats can do no wrong" dismissal of F2 turning to make sure the PU heard what he said. Not to mention, you seem to have dismissed the "tight" comment from F2. That is arguing balls and strikes. He just chose to be tactful about it but KNEW what he was doing when he played his cowardice game and got called on it.

I always love the spin you put on situations to make the rats look better. Announcers included.

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I knew we weren't seeing all of the exchange so I have said nothing. Yes, it looks bad when an umpire goes in front of a catcher to only talk to him. If he can combine it with sweeping the plate it is better. That said, Ken Singleton was an outfielder so his knowledge of catcher/umpire discussions is limited. Just because a catcher doesn't turn around doesn't mean he can say anything he wants, that has limits too. Him asking if he had stretched is a player/coach speak for you need to get in there and work. There is nothing wrong with a little give and take on balls and strikes but within reason.

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@ ump_24 I actually like your approach.

So your position is that the player's version is always false?

The report I heard was that the conversation was

"Did you stretch today?"

"What?"

"Did you stretch today?"

"What's that mean?

"Well, you're a little tight."

That is actually funny. But I bet there had to be more than that.

I'm really really tired of this "umpire can do no wrong" and "it's always the players fault" bullSH*#.

I don't think anybody said it was good. I said it was ugly. Others have said similar.

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I played that clip for three of my assignors (HS, JUCO, MSBL, Connie Mack, etc.). All three frowned upon the umpire's performance. One guy said that if an umpire handled a similar situation in that fashion, he would not be getting any more games. And that's at our level. This is the big leagues for crying out loud!

yep, it is the big leagues, they can do that up there.. the game is much more different than you guys think.. I get to ask some of these questions, and they tell me, it is not as it is made out to be...for once, why are we not sticking up for the umpire, instead we are quick to bash him.. he is in a place that many of us only dream about..

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I played that clip for three of my assignors (HS, JUCO, MSBL, Connie Mack, etc.). All three frowned upon the umpire's performance. One guy said that if an umpire handled a similar situation in that fashion, he would not be getting any more games. And that's at our level. This is the big leagues for crying out loud!

Yep, that's your level. You point out how wrong MLB umpires are in the way they handle situations pretty often. Maybe you should realize that things are a little different out there than the stuff that happens to you on some local HS game.

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I played that clip for three of my assignors (HS, JUCO, MSBL, Connie Mack, etc.). All three frowned upon the umpire's performance. One guy said that if an umpire handled a similar situation in that fashion, he would not be getting any more games. And that's at our level. This is the big leagues for crying out loud!

Yep, that's your level. You point out how wrong MLB umpires are in the way they handle situations pretty often. Maybe you should realize that things are a little different out there than the stuff that happens to you on some local HS game.

.... You must have quite a few pro games under your belt. You certaintly act like it....:jerkit:

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