Plating the runner

[Astrosdawg07]

How many of you guys point at the plate to signal the runner touching the plate? I was told the other day not to do this, it gives the defensive team an advantage if a player misses the plate. What's your take?

[mazzamouth]

How many of you guys point at the plate to signal the runner touching the plate? I was told the other day not to do this, it gives the defensive team an advantage if a player misses the plate. What's your take?

no way you should do this..

[BrianC14]

no way you should do this..

Agreed. Besides the point that it can help the defense, there's no "point" in doing it - - (no pun intended). It serves no purpose, and it can help the defense if he misses and you don't do the 'point'.

Don't point.

It's rude. Like staring. :BD:

[Umpire in Chief]

The only time I'd say point is in a timing play to signal the run counts.

[arbiter22]

The only time I'd say point is in a timing play to signal the run counts.

agreed 100%

Plus now what happens if you forget to point after the runner touches the plate? Possible scenario: You (the umpire) have pointed every time the runner legally touches home plate. But this time you forget to point after seeing the runner legally touch home plate... The defense appeals, possibly because they say that you didn't point and you indicate after the appeal that the runner legally touched the plate (the safe mechanic). You will probably have an argument, with the coach saying something like, "You point every time the runner touches the plate. Why didn't you point this time?"

This can all be avoided if you just don't point. Except when your are informing everyone that the run counts on a "timing play".

[arbiter22]

agreed 100%

Plus now what happens if you forget to point after the runner touches the plate? Possible scenario: You (the umpire) have pointed every time the runner legally touches home plate. But this time you forget to point after seeing the runner legally touch home plate... The defense appeals, possibly because they say that you didn't point and you indicate after the appeal that the runner legally touched the plate (the safe mechanic). You will probably have an argument, with the coach saying something like, "You point every time the runner touches the plate. Why didn't you point this time?"

This can all be avoided if you just don't point. Except when your are informing everyone that the run counts on a "timing play".

O yeah, the odds of this situation happening are probably very little. But why set yourself up for it to happen?

This is just my opinion. I may be totally of base on this one.

Edited February 20, 2010 by arbiter22

[jjb]

There's no real reason to do it, and a lot of reasons not to. If you do it to signal that the runner scored, what do you do when he misses it? If in that case you don't point it, aren't you telling the defense he missed it? And if you point it when he misses it, what kind of sh*tstorm are you setting yourself up for if you call him out?

Like Warren says, I'm only pointing it on a Timing Play.

[BrianC14]

The only time I'd say point is in a timing play to signal the run counts.

I disagree.

There's no need to point just after he's touched.

After the play is over (and in your sitch, the inning would be over) you could point and say, "Score the run", (provided that no appeal is then possible) - but if you point as he's just crossed HP, what about if he missed ? An appeal could give the defense a 4th out, negating the run.

[BrianC14]

This mechanic is only to be employed on a time play. Otherwise, trade in your uniform for that of the defensive team.

FWIW, proper mechanics here:

A) Run scores

Point at the plate from your position and voice "score that run" or "that run scores". Do it twice. Sell as needed. Repeat a third time, except pointing at the scorer. This last part feels cool when you've got a stadium gig with a press box.

B) Run does not score

Point at the plate from position, then make a "safe" sign while saying "no run scores". Repeat twice. Again, do so a third time, while making a "safe" sign while facing the scorer.

This is a judgement call and not subject to prolonged argument or protest, unless you incorrectly rule what is and isn't a time play.

And what if he missed the plate? See my post just above this one.

RE: the boldface type: No, a "safe" sign is NOT the signal to use. A signal of "Safe" means just the opposite -that he DID score.

The signal to use there is an overhead football-style "time out" signal.

BTW, even that signal is a bit of overkill, unless you're working in a stadium with a scorekeeper up in the press box (that's who the signal is really for). You could communicate the run doesn't count simply by waving it off using one arm, and stating (for both teams to hear): "No run, no run." or words that would communicate that the run doesn't count.

[UmpTTS43]

I disagree.

There's no need to point just after he's touched.

After the play is over (and in your sitch, the inning would be over) you could point and say, "Score the run", (provided that no appeal is then possible) - but if you point as he's just crossed HP, what about if he missed ? An appeal could give the defense a 4th out, negating the run.

On a true "time" play, you have to point and score that run ("That run scores ... score that run") regardless if the runner touched the plate or not. He is considered as legally touching as soon he has passed it until there is an appeal. If there is an appeal following the "time" play and it is upheld, you then unscore the run ("No run scores, no run scores")

[mstaylor]

On the timing play, that infers a third out. Hold the score the run mechanic until no appeal is possible. That way it makes no difference if he touched or not. If he doesn't score because of timing then you can do whenever because there will be no appeal. Scoring the run when there is a viable appeal is asking for the dirty end of the stick.

[UmpTTS43]

On the timing play, that infers a third out. Hold the score the run mechanic until no appeal is possible. That way it makes no difference if he touched or not. If he doesn't score because of timing then you can do whenever because there will be no appeal. Scoring the run when there is a viable appeal is asking for the dirty end of the stick.

With all due respect, I have to disagree. If you wait to score the run due to a possible appeal, you may tip off the defense. Once that third out is recorded, you have to make a determination concerning the plated runner. Either the run scores or it doesn't.

Similar mechanics where BR is out at 2nd for 3rd out, with R2 scoring prior to the out. You score the run. Defense appeals BR missed 1st, appeal upheld. Now as plate umpire you take the run off of the board.

In the original OP, the runner legally scored. It doesn't matter if he touched the plate or not, it is a legally scored run, until it is properly appealed, and must be accounted for. Now if the defense appeals, nullifying the run, you must take it off the board.

We cannot mesh the mechanics for a runner missing home plate while a play is being made on him, and a time play. These are two different senarios and are covered differently, not only mechanically, but by the rules.

[mazzamouth]

On a true "time" play, you have to point and score that run ("That run scores ... score that run") regardless if the runner touched the plate or not. He is considered as legally touching as soon he has passed it until there is an appeal. If there is an appeal following the "time" play and it is upheld, you then unscore the run ("No run scores, no run scores")

ding, ding, ding.. Jim we have a winner...B)

This is what is taught at Jimmy's...we went over this drill about 30 times..

[Umpire in Chief]

I see it the same as the old missed first base appeal. You signal safe knowing he never touched and then allow the defense to appeal.

Example: R2, 2 out, hit to the outfield. R2 scores before the batter-runner is tagged out coming into 2nd for the third out. Things become relaxed and the PU points and calls for the run to score. Just then the defensive coach yells to his team to appeal third because the runner missed it. They call for the appeal and the all-knowing, incredibly awesome and talented PU who was covering his responsibility of the touch of third saw he missed it then calls R2 out on appeal and then wipes out the run he just scored.

It is the defense's responsibility to know they have the appeal for a 4th out and can do so until the last infielder has left. It is our responsibility to call the play as presented to us and at times this means making a call we know will not stand on appeal.

[kylejt]

On a timing play/missed plate, I'd wait until the runner has left the dirt circle to make my causal point for the scorekeeper. Then, it's a an appeal play, as opposed to a tag play. If the D wants to appeal it as the runner is walking to the dugout, I can easily wave it off. This way you're not just standing there like a dolt for eight guys to cross the line, and the scorekeeper is scratching his head, or worse.