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Lhaber9

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In your revised question, the results are the same. It is at the TOT, not when it gets to its destination. At the TOT, R1 was between 2B and 1B. He only gets 3B and it doesn't matter if it was allowed to go out intentionally or touched and, in the umpire's judgment, would still have gone out regardless of being touched.

Now, if F5 touched it and knocked it out intentionally or, in the umpire's judgment, would not have gone out without being touched, then that would be considered a throw and all runners get 2 bases from that TOT. Thus, if R1 has reached 2B or beyond and BR has reached 2B or beyond, then both score.

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Let me see what you guy would rule. This happened in a MiLB A game.

Pick attempt at first from the rubber, gets by the F3 who chases it down the RF line,the R1 goes to third. The ball rolls down the wall, hits the tarp and bounces out of play. Where does the runner get placed.

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Let me see what you guy would rule. This happened in a MiLB A game.

Pick attempt at first from the rubber, gets by the F3 who chases it down the RF line,the R1 goes to third. The ball rolls down the wall, hits the tarp and bounces out of play. Where does the runner get placed.

R1 gets third.

From the MLBUM (emphasis in original wording in MLBUM):

If a pitched ball (or a ball thrown by the pitcher while in contact with the rubber) goes through or by the catcher (or fielder), remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is two bases from the time of the pitch. This ruling applies without regard to whether or not the ball would have gone out of play had it not been kicked or deflected. (See the Approved Ruling to Official Baseball Rule 7.05(h).)

7.05(h) Approved Ruling

If, however, the pitched or thrown ball goes through or by the catcher or through the fielder, and remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected into the dugout, stands or other area where the ball is dead, the awarding of bases shall be two bases from position of runners at the time of the pitch or throw.

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Now, if F5 touched it and knocked it out intentionally or, in the umpire's judgment, would not have gone out without being touched, then that would be considered a throw and all runners get 2 bases from that TOT. Thus, if R1 has reached 2B or beyond and BR has reached 2B or beyond, then both score.

This is only true if F5 has control of the ball or knocks it out intentionally. The outfielder could make a perfect throw, but if F5 unintentionally deflects it out of play, it's still two bases from the time the outfielder threw the ball.

From the MLBUM (emphasis added by MLBUM):

If a thrown ball deflects off a fielder and goes directly out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch if it is the first play by an infielder; otherwise the award is two bases from the time of the throw.

If a thrown ball goes through or by a fielder, remains on the playing field, and is subsequently kicked or deflected out of play (unintentionally in either case), the award is two bases from the time of the throw.

If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and drops the ball while he is out of play, or if the fielder drops such a ball and it then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runners at the time the ball was dropped.

If, in the judgment of the umpire, a fielder intentionally kicks or deflects a batted or thrown ball out of play, the award is two bases from the time the ball was kicked or deflected.

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This is only true if F5 has control of the ball or knocks it out intentionally. The outfielder could make a perfect throw, but if F5 unintentionally deflects it out of play, it's still two bases from the time the outfielder threw the ball.

Without reading to ensure all points, I confused a pitched ball vs. a thrown ball getting deflected out of play.

Correct, a thrown ball being deflected unintentionally and leaves the field, 2 bases from TOT.

A pitched ball deflected unintentionally which would have NOT gone OOP is 2 bases. Probably will never make this ruling unless it is very obvious.

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It's one base, R1 goes back to second. A thrown ball from the rubber only one base, which is how the pros enforced it. It was protested and upheld.

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You are telling me a Pro manager protested that call:wow:?

It goes to show that even guys who get paid to do the job still don't have a clue. Makes me want to cut the local rats a whole lot more slack...on second thought,nahhhhhhhhhhhh :wow:

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It was funny because it was the first game our assoc had put a fill-in umpire out there. The PU came out to our guy and asked if he was missing something. Our guy confirmed he was on the rubber when he threw it. It was obvious to everyone he was because he started his motion and threw to first, LH pitcher.

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the only reason i could see for the coach arguing the call, is that in order for the base award to be one base the pitcher must throw from the rubber. There are multiple pickoffs to firstbase for a right handed pitcher. you can step off the rubber, spin and throw. or you can do what i call a spin step where you dont completely disengage from the rubber. for a lefty you can just lift your right leg, step to first and throw. If it was the first one, the pitcher is no longer throwing from the rubber so it would be a base award of 2 bases. This is how i understand the rule, correct me if i am wrong.

one more thing about the different pickoffs to first. if the pitcher does the first pickoff move (disengaging the rubber then spinning and throwing), it is not a balk if they dont throw right? say they just disengage the rubber and spin but dont raise their arm or pretend to throw. that is legal, correct? however if they fake a throw then it is a balk. also during either of the other two pickoff methods that i mentioned the ball must be thrown or it is a balk.

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the only reason i could see for the coach arguing the call, is that in order for the base award to be one base the pitcher must throw from the rubber. There are multiple pickoffs to firstbase for a right handed pitcher. you can step off the rubber, spin and throw. or you can do what i call a spin step where you dont completely disengage from the rubber. for a lefty you can just lift your right leg, step to first and throw. If it was the first one, the pitcher is no longer throwing from the rubber so it would be a base award of 2 bases. This is how i understand the rule, correct me if i am wrong.

one more thing about the different pickoffs to first. if the pitcher does the first pickoff move (disengaging the rubber then spinning and throwing), it is not a balk if they dont throw right? say they just disengage the rubber and spin but dont raise their arm or pretend to throw. that is legal, correct? however if they fake a throw then it is a balk. also during either of the other two pickoff methods that i mentioned the ball must be thrown or it is a balk.

Your first case is a legal disengagement and he can look, not look, fake a throw or whatever he wants. If he has legally disengaged he can not balk on anything to first.

As far as moves to first from the rubber there are three types.

1. A spin to first while engaged with the rubber.

2. A jab move, where he jabs his pivot foot toward third and steps to first.

3. A jump step, where he jumps with both feet and turns toward first.

All three require him to throw, failure to do so is a balk and a one base award.

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Your first case is a legal disengagement and he can look, not look, fake a throw or whatever he wants. If he has legally disengaged he can not balk on anything to first.

As far as moves to first from the rubber there are three types.

1. A spin to first while engaged with the rubber.

2. A jab move, where he jabs his pivot foot toward third and steps to first.

3. A jump step, where he jumps with both feet and turns toward first.

All three require him to throw, failure to do so is a balk and a one base award.

Dont forget that he also must gain ground towards first on all the above moves or it is a balk.

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#2 is a balk, as you've written it here. F1 cannot jab the pivot foot on this move - it has to be the free foot.

Brian,

That is incorrect. From the MLBUM:

(i) It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pick-off move to first base by first moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with the non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pick-off move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base.

Michael's statement is correct.

JM

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I think Brian and I were thinking the same way on #2. We both just looked at the statement as that F1 just does a pivot on his plant foot. In that case it would be a balk. I think you can see where the confusion came from.

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JM,

Sounds like the MLBUM is describing what some call the "third to first" move.

Does that sound right, or am I thinking of something else?

ump_24,

No, the passage I quoted is explicitly and solely dealing with the "jab step" pickoff move, made by a RHP going to 1B.

The "third to first" move is covered in a preceding section.

JM

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JM,

Sounds like the MLBUM is describing what some call the "third to first" move.

Does that sound right, or am I thinking of something else?

The third to first move starts with a step with non-pivot foot towards 3B. The jab step starts with a step (jab step) toward third with the pivot foot coming off the rubber.

So "something else" is your answer.

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I've never seen it executed before.

I am assuming, admittedly very rusty on my rules (though amply sufficient in my knowledge of forensic science at the moment...:cheers:) that this "jab" would require the pivot foot to be lifted up and placed back down on the second base side of the rubber.

Negative, the jab is considered being engaged and the pivot foot moves toward third first, followed by a step toward first with the lead foot.

The jump step is very similar but the pitcher moves both feet at the same time.

In both cases he doesn't necessarily clear the rubber, he may land on it, in front of it or beside it.

Technically it is illegal by the strictest and literal reading of the rule but has been accepted practice at the MLB and has filtered down to all levels.

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I've never seen it executed before.

I am assuming, admittedly very rusty on my rules (though amply sufficient in my knowledge of forensic science at the moment...:cheers:) that this "jab" would require the pivot foot to be lifted up and placed back down on the second base side of the rubber.

ump_24,

This is what a properly executed jab step move looks like:

watch?v=6jmT4dAwzF0

You are describing a legal disengage which is a different (legal) move the pitcher may make.

Michael,

What rule do you believe is violated when you suggest it is "technically illegal"?

I don't believe it is illegal technically or otherwise. It violates no proscription I can find in the text of the rules.

JM

Edited by UmpJM

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