Dropped 3rd Strike

[daled 10]

One of the umpires from my association called me today about this situation he had a couple of nights ago. I want to make sure I gave him correct information.

Here's what he described to me. I was not there so I hope this make sense to everyone.

Cal Ripken Majors Game

R1, R2 and R3 (all bases occupied) 2 outs and a 3 ball 2 strike count on batter.

Pitch is swung at and missed and catchers does not field the ball and it goes to the back stop. All runners are moving on the pitch so catcher recovers the ball and attempts to make a play at the plate. The runner is safe at the plate. With all that is going on no one notices that the BR is still standing near the plate, the catcher runs and tags him for the final out.

Question that was asked, does the run count prior to the out being made?

[BrianC14 426]

One of the umpires from my association called me today about this situation he had a couple of nights ago. I want to make sure I gave him correct information.

Here's what he described to me. I was not there so I hope this make sense to everyone.

Cal Ripken Majors Game

R1, R2 and R3 (all bases occupied) 2 outs and a 3 ball 2 strike count on batter.

Pitch is swung at and missed and catchers does not field the ball and it goes to the back stop. All runners are moving on the pitch so catcher recovers the ball and attempts to make a play at the plate. The runner is safe at the plate. With all that is going on no one notices that the BR is still standing near the plate, the catcher runs and tags him for the final out.

Question that was asked, does the run count prior to the out being made?

If the batter didn't reach first base, and he is tagged out, that is the 3rd out of the inning, and the run does not score.

I posted this very question / situation on the other forum recently. :violin:

[carolinablue 196]

Here is the OBR. rule that covers this:

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

I don't know Cal. Ripken rules but I figure they might be a modified version of OBR.

[Aging_Arbiter 1,632]

No run can score when the inning ends in a force play or by the BR before reaching 1B (as in your case).

However, there is something that I would like to point out (and would hope that someone would point out something similar to me) is the common misconception of the verbiage of dropped 3rd strike.

For example, 2 strikes on the , pitch hits the ground "x distance" in front of the plate, batter swings & misses. F2 fields the ball cleanly on the hop. Batter can still run. The pitch never reached the catcher, so it wasn't "dropped", it was not able to be called a strike due to crossing the strike zone"in flight", yet was swung at an missed. Thus creating the "uncaught 3rd strike" that I (personally) feel better explains the concept to newer umpires.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thoughts?

[frenchblue 10]

No run can score when the inning ends in a force play or by the BR before reaching 1B (as in your case).

However, there is something that I would like to point out (and would hope that someone would point out something similar to me) is the common misconception of the verbiage of dropped 3rd strike.

For example, 2 strikes on the , pitch hits the ground "x distance" in front of the plate, batter swings & misses. F2 fields the ball cleanly on the hop. Batter can still run. The pitch never reached the catcher, so it wasn't "dropped", it was not able to be called a strike due to crossing the strike zone"in flight", yet was swung at an missed. Thus creating the "uncaught 3rd strike" that I (personally) feel better explains the concept to newer umpires.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thoughts?

I understand what you are saying AA. I am not a newer umpire though, so I am not the one to ask if that makes sense more then the so called "traditional way" of explaining the rule.

Let's here some imput from some of the newer umpires on the board. I like the way you explained it AA, makes perfect sense to me :violin:

[Aging_Arbiter 1,632]

I understand what you are saying AA. I am not a newer umpire though, so I am not the one to ask if that makes sense more then the so called "traditional way" of explaining the rule.

Let's here some imput from some of the newer umpires on the board. I like the way you explained it AA, makes perfect sense to me

Thanks old fart work better?? j/k I wasn't implying that you were "newer", more that I was stating that is how I PUT IT to newer umpires. They seem to grasp it easier that way, and keeps me from getting calls over and over with the "did I miss this call?" opening the conversation.

[frenchblue 10]

Thanks old fart work better?? j/k I wasn't implying that you were "newer", more that I was stating that is how I PUT IT to newer umpires. They seem to grasp it easier that way, and keeps me from getting calls over and over with the "did I miss this call?" opening the conversation.

i know you weren't implying anything...i was just saying the way you explained the rule was good, even for someone with what you call "expierence" (me) . i already know the rule so, i was also wondering if the way you explained the rule helped newer umpires understand the rule better than the "traditional way" of explaining it.

[Aging_Arbiter 1,632]

I see. and thank you. Not to change the subject, but this conversation usually either preceeds or is closely followed by the conversation regarding a coach saying that a batter hit by a pitched ball that "hit the ground first", is a dead ball..........until I asked if a ball hits the ground and gets by the catcher, is it still a dead ball? Because if it is a dead ball coach, your runners can not advance. Usually followed by :violin:

[BrianC14 426]

No run can score when the inning ends in a force play or by the BR before reaching 1B (as in your case).

However, there is something that I would like to point out (and would hope that someone would point out something similar to me) is the common misconception of the verbiage of dropped 3rd strike.

For example, 2 strikes on the , pitch hits the ground "x distance" in front of the plate, batter swings & misses. F2 fields the ball cleanly on the hop. Batter can still run. The pitch never reached the catcher, so it wasn't "dropped", it was not able to be called a strike due to crossing the strike zone"in flight", yet was swung at an missed. Thus creating the "uncaught 3rd strike" that I (personally) feel better explains the concept to newer umpires.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thoughts?

I agree - saying "an uncaught 3rd strike" (even if it's a CALLED 3rd, mind you) - is a better way to phrase it, because now it includes the 'bounced pitch'.

The reason the term "dropped third" came into use is because it was based on the definition of a pitch, which goes "directly" from the pitcher's hand to the catcher's mitt. (note the lack of a bounce in that definition). :violin:

[carolinablue 196]

If the batter didn't reach first base, and he is tagged out, that is the 3rd out of the inning, and the run does not score.

I posted this very question / situation on the other forum recently.

Brian,

I know the post you are talking about I think, and if I do it was a little different. It was also a great post and very informative.

If it is the one I'm thinking of you had R3 stealing home and touching the plate safely just before the batter takes the third strike for the third out. Does the run count ?

I know the answer from the other board but does anyone here want to take a crack at it ?

[NFUA_44 164]

But Brian wait, the runner may have scored in that nano second where the Batter might have become a batter/runner .....................but I digress, Just couldn't resist. On another note, both the post on the other forum, and this one have given me some great material for an upcoming clinic we are hosting for some newer crews working through the ranks. Thanks as always for your valued input. :)

[mstaylor 1,512]

I have used the same question to coaches, followed by, you can't have a sometimes automatic deadball. The look is priceless.

[Finnblue 10]

In Japan:

MS

[BrianC14 426]

Brian,

I know the post you are talking about I think, and if I do it was a little different. It was also a great post and very informative.

If it is the one I'm thinking of you had R3 stealing home and touching the plate safely just before the batter takes the third strike for the third out. Does the run count ?

I know the answer from the other board but does anyone here want to take a crack at it ?

Great googley-moogley, my memory is bad.

Yes, "R3 steals and arrives before the pitch that is a 3rd strike/3rd out, does the run count? " was indeed the question. Oy.

Well, the ANSWER is the same, it's the question that was different. ;)

[BrianC14 426]

But Brian wait, the runner may have scored in that nano second where the Batter might have become a batter/runner .....................but I digress, Just couldn't resist. On another note, both the post on the other forum, and this one have given me some great material for an upcoming clinic we are hosting for some newer crews working through the ranks. Thanks as always for your valued input.

Thanks to you, and you're welcome.

[BrianC14 426]

In Japan:

MS

That's a great one! You don't even have to understand Japanese to know what's happening there, and how they ruled it - "run scores". :violin:

[Finnblue 10]

That's a great one! You don't even have to understand Japanese to know what's happening there, and how they ruled it - "run scores".

Funny thing is, that when one player posted this to our website, he was blaming that the whole situation was PU's mistake...

MS

[Mr Umpire 118]

For example, 2 strikes on the , pitch hits the ground "x distance" in front of the plate, batter swings & misses. F2 fields the ball cleanly on the hop. Batter can still run. The pitch never reached the catcher, so it wasn't "dropped", it was not able to be called a strike due to crossing the strike zone"in flight", yet was swung at an missed. Thus creating the "uncaught 3rd strike" that I (personally) feel better explains the concept to newer umpires.

Thoughts? Comments?

Thoughts?

To me, even saying "Uncaught 3rd strike" implies getting to the catcher and he misses. It is the same concept as "Dropped 3rd strike" except it used "Uncaught". Still implies the catcher had to touch it and then not catch it or it goes by him.

I would say "If a pitched ball is deemed a strike and touches the ground or other object at all before getting to the catcher or after the catcher touches it or goes by the catcher."

This covers all instances in which the ball touches the ground or if the pitch is swung at and hits the ground or bounces off the catcher and hits the batter then the catcher catches it. Or, even if the pitch goes by untouched to the fence then bounces back into the catcher's glove.

This is just how I explain it when asked.