Get a load of this one.

[RWPatten]

NBC WS in Tulsa,OK. 13 year olds.

3 games to call. No time limit. 7 innings each. 100 Degrees. Yay!

Game 1- Both coaches come out to argue calls in the 1st inning. Game goes smoothly the next 4 until the coaches get into across the field, yelling. I am UIC. We have a "meeting" at home plate. Needless to say, nothing else either coach. Game ends after 3 hours and 15 minutes.

Game 2- Coach for the visitors decides to yell about everything from the 3rd base coaches box. When he argues with me about interference on a pickoff play, he also tells his runner to run over the SS next time. I tell him that I will throw him out if that comes out of his mouth again. That games ends after 2 1/2 hours.

Game 3- Same visitors. Home team folks are great. Had them 4 times over the weekend and not one issue, gripe, anything. Home team hits an over the fence home run. I am BU. I see the runner touch 1st, 2nd. I also turn to see him touch 3rd, which he does. One of the visitors coaches, want the kids to appeal, saying the kid missed 3rd. They appeal, safe is the call. The coach blows up. He is ejected. 2 innings later, a LH batter check swings. I am in position A, since no runners on. The catchers appeals to me. I do nothing, waiting for the UIC to appeal. He says no, because the kid didn't swing. The other visiting coach goes ballistic! He starts yelling, gets ejected, and continues. He calls the UIC names and after leaving the field, tells the fans to "Stay on that fat ump's @$$!" UIC says "ballgame". We are leaving with the place in an uproar. The tournamnet director comes down and asks what happened. After listening to the UIC and one of the coaches, he asks the UIC what he decided. The UIC said "forfeit, I called the game". The tournament director says "fine with me".

Needless to say, that was a crazy end to my 1st full year as an umpire. I am ready for year 2.:kissass:

[Nate]

By rule if a player or coach appeals to the umpire for a check swing the plate umpire must ask his partner(s). Your UIC was wrong, I'd get myself ejected too if I was the coach. He handled the ejection wrong though, acting like a child is never good.

[RWPatten]

I agree. with you on the appeal. My partner said he was going to explain that my angle from position A on a LH batter was not ideal for an appeal. He never got to explain before the expletives started. It was a bad deal. Hot, humid and starting the "2:00" game at 4:00 made it a recipe for disaster.

Walking toward the exit and listening to the coach call the umpire name after name and hearing the coaches daughter pleading with him to stop; it was sad.

It was just an example of why school ball is more enjoyable to me.

[Replacematt]

I agree. with you on the appeal. My partner said he was going to explain that my angle from position A on a LH batter was not ideal for an appeal.

So what? Many times, there is less than an ideal angle. Your partner needs to go to you when requested. There is no reason not to do so. If you can't tell what it was, then it wasn't a swing, and you can make that call.

[RWPatten]

Matt, I'm with you there too. I was just repeating what he said. I was going to go "no swing". It just didn't get to me. Oh well.

[JamesC]

For me, about 98% of the time I WILL NOT call a strike on a left-handed batter when I am in A or a right-handed batter when I am in D unless it is just absolutely positively without a doubt that EVERYONE on the field could tell he swung. You are basically out of position to make that call because the batter's back is to you and it is going to be a BI*** to see whether or not he broke his wrists/bat crossed the plate (whatever you are looking for). If I am behind the plate (mostly doing high school where the players understand somewhat how things work) and this situation arises I will tell the catcher, "He is not in the appropriate position to see that call". About 99% of the time players and coaches alike understand that. However, if there is a right-handed batter and umpire in A I will appeal EVERYTIME a player/coach asks me to. I usually prefer for the player rather than the coach because that makes me feel a little safer back there (I know the player is actually paying a little bit of attention and I may not take as many shots to the head that day) but I will do the same for a coach EVERYTIME!

Just my Standpoint!

[scobes7]

You do not have the right to end the game and declare a forfeit....bad call.

[RWPatten]

What happens after both coaches for a team have been ejected? The more I think about it, the more I believe it was a HTBT.

I never want to call a forfeit. I felt like in this situation, we had no choice. Both coaches for the team had been ejected. If what we did was wrong, fine. I'll accept responsibility. Please help me to understand what the correct call would be. This was still my first full year, so I am trying to learn as well.

[Mr Umpire]

You do not have the right to end the game and declare a forfeit....bad call.

UIC has the right to declare a forfeit if 1 of the rules are violated which allows it. I would say that allowed it. But, yes, UIC can declare a forfeit unless otherwise stated in the rules. Such as LL's tournaments, only Williamsport can declare a forfeit.

So, if this was a LL tournament, then you would be right. If it is just OBR rules, then you would not be right. It depends on the rules.

[scobes7]

UIC has the right to declare a forfeit if 1 of the rules are violated which allows it. I would say that allowed it. But, yes, UIC can declare a forfeit unless otherwise stated in the rules. Such as LL's tournaments, only Williamsport can declare a forfeit.

So, if this was a LL tournament, then you would be right. If it is just OBR rules, then you would not be right. It depends on the rules.

I was assuming that is was a tournament at this time of year.

[mstaylor]

First, no matter where you are on the field you can make a ruling on a checkswing. No matter the situation, with one exception, the PU should always ask. If you don't have a good look or you aren't sure, then he didn't swing. If you are in A and have a LH batter it is easier to see than you think. If you see the face of the bat it is likely he swung. The exception there is a dodge of an inside pitch where he turns his whole body around but doesn't actually swing.

The exception to the asking rule is when the catcher is asking about everything. An example would be the Japanese catcher in the LLWS the last two years. If the batter even flinches he would ask. To me that is abusing the request procedure and I would start being selective on what I am asking about.

[noumpere]

For me, about 98% of the time I WILL NOT call a strike on a left-handed batter when I am in A or a right-handed batter when I am in D unless it is just absolutely positively without a doubt that EVERYONE on the field could tell he swung.

Then you should give back your game fee. Make the effin call.

You are basically out of position to make that call because the batter's back is to you and it is going to be a BI*** to see whether or not he broke his wrists/bat crossed the plate (whatever you are looking for).

What you look for is "did he attempt" -- not any of the things you listed. You can see that just as well from any position.

[Umpire in Chief]

Fun weekend...

As for the appeal. I don't understand why some guys are hesitant to appeal when asked. Just get it over with.

As PU as soon as I hear the bench asking for an appeal I usually give it, I don't need to wait for the catcher.

As BU 90+% of the time I uphold my partner's call. I have to be really convinced he swung to over rule. Don't use any codes like I'll point with one finger if I want you to agree with me and two fingers if I want your real opinion.

[Tyennie]

I thought maybe it would be one finger after i get someone's "honest" opinion. :givebeer:

[RWPatten]

Yeah it was fun. I am with you regarding when I appeal. I just didn't realize the strong feelings that this would bring out. I kicked a tag play on a rundown in the game before that. The team that was on the short end did not complain at all, even though it killed a rally. They came back and won.

Forgive me that I did not put in detail all of what was said to the PU by the HC. I feel that I cannot disguise the expletives enough. There were too many expeltives and derogatory names. No one should have to deal with the kind of abuse that he had to put up with. It was a perfect example of why there is a shortage of umpires across the nation. The PU worked hard, hustled and always tried to be in the correct position.

Should he have appealed to me, yes. Would the decision of ball/strike have been changed, no; because there was no swing. I just didn't see why not appealing a check swing was grounds for a coach to go apesh&%. The fact that the coach's daughter was crying and pleading for him to stop, wow.

I am an assistant HS basketball coach. If our HC or any one of the assistants did what he did, we would be fired. Simple as that.

[mstaylor]

I agree that there was no reason for the coach to lose his mind. Also, there is nothing that says he wouldn't have snapped on you for not changing it. If that happens, dump him. That is black letter law that he can't argue after checking.

[HokieUmp]

By rule if a player or coach appeals to the umpire for a check swing the plate umpire must ask his partner(s).

If we're playing by OBR, sure. Are we? I mean, for me, "NBC" stands for National Broadcasting Corporation, so I have no idea if we're talking OBR or FED for that.

Your UIC was wrong, I'd get myself ejected too if I was the coach. He handled the ejection wrong though, acting like a child is never good.

Seriously? You'd get yourself ejected over something like that? That's a very rat-like thing to say.

If it was OBR, the UIC was wrong. But to flip out enough to get run is just stupid.

[kylejt]

it is going to be a BI*** to see whether or not he broke his wrists/bat crossed the plate (whatever you are looking for). If I am behind the plate (mostly doing high school ......

Yikes! My 11 year old Junior Little League umpires know better than this.

Get thee to some training. Pronto.

Don't high school umpires have to pass some sort of test?

[RWPatten]

NFHS Part 1 for Oklahoma. What kind of training are you talking about? That is a tough angle from A to see a LH check swing. But I have had it many times and called it as I saw it.

[AllanA]

"An APPEAL is the act of a fielder in claiming violation of the rules by the offensive team". p19 OBR. A check swing "appeal" is a courtesy to the defense when asked. When I have the dish and a coach or player asks for an appeal I will go to my partner. Out of courtesy. When I have a LH batter and my partner is in A there is no way he can see an actual check swing. Now I may have been blocked and he swung threw, I will come out and ask my partner if he swung. That way it doesn't put either of us in a bad position. In HS we do attend meetings and clinics and I attend clinics on my own. And yes we do take tests and get evaluated each year. especially b4 playoffs. 9.02c The coach may ask for help and if you grant it you must go to the base ump for the appeal.

I had a couple of varsity coach ask every time on a check swing where it was becoming a travesty. I put a stop to it and only check on the obvious ones.

If I see he didn't offer I will tell the catcher no he didn't go. And that usually satisfies them.

Allan

Edited August 3, 2009 by AllanA

[mstaylor]

Allan, I think you and I are saying the same thing. I tell the catcher that I will ask if you ask. If they get rediculous then I will put a stop to it.

I think the go to a clinic reference was to the breaking the wrists post. What he needs to learn is we judge whether the batter attempted to swing. We are not using things like breaking the wrist or breaking the plane.

[AllanA]

MSTaylor, yes we are saying the same thing. I was replying to the thread, no particular post. In fact I jumped to the bottom and didn't even read your post.

I had to go back up to see what you were talking about. Hee Hee I am usually slow on Mondays. I get sharper by Wednesday.....hopefully.

Also In FED 10 Art Art. 4 a The UIC sometimes ask for aid.

Interesting,

Allan

[Umpire in Chief]

This is another instanch where if you vocalize well and sell the, "No he didn't!" that they are less likely to ask.

[mazzamouth]

Then you should give back your game fee. Make the effin call.

What you look for is "did he attempt" -- not any of the things you listed. You can see that just as well from any position.

I hope you dont take any money if you have to make a call like this... you might be able to get away with that in LL... but move up and your gonna get a ear full from a coach, asking how can you make that call... all you can see is azz and elbows..

[Umpire in Chief]

I hope you dont take any money if you have to make a call like this... you might be able to get away with that in LL... but move up and your gonna get a ear full from a coach, asking how can you make that call... all you can see is azz and elbows..

I've actually been in games where either I or my partner are in A position on a lefty and have been asked for an appeal. Once again I won't hesitate to appeal. Remember unless were talking NCAA it is just an opinion as to whether the batter struck at the ball.

Yes coaches will make the argument that you cant see well enough, but it's all subjective and they're on borrowed time if they want to bother you for making the call either way.

The big thing on appealing to A on a lefty is that it looks bad to those who are not knowledgeable. But what I hate to hear is when I'm in A and my partner is asked for an appeal on a lefty and the partner replies with something to the effect of "he can't tell he's over there." Just appeal and get it over with.