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How would you handle?


T-Rav

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In LL seniors, most HS players, late in the game, the top of the 6th inning, after calling ball 3 on a 2-0 count, the catcher says to the umpire loud enough for the some of the crowd to hear "does it have to be right down the middle to be a strike?'. PU responds "you got a problem with me?", catcher gets up and turns to the PU, "yeah I do, your giving them(the other team) all the calls". PU says nothing, and batter takes ball 4. How would you handle this as the PU?

Previously in the game the PU sent the same batter to first when the catcher with runners on 2nd and 3rd, to 1st when the catcher attempted to throw the ball to 3rd with the batter starting to step out of the box, which was now nothing less than a light color of clay. An argument ensued with the HC and PU goes back with the runner still on first, as the coach yells "can we appeal that" and the PU says sure; BU- who was not paying attention, signals out, than safe, than the umpires meet and talk for about 15 seconds, and leave the batter at 1st. It was a 3-1 count, they did not rule ball four, they just said since catcher hit the batter, he gets 1st base, same as HBP. :mellow:

I was just watching this game, scratching my head, wondering how in the world are these guys are getting paid. The PU was the oldest looking umpire I have ever seen, and used a larger scrapper like you use to get ice off your car to wipe the plate. BU was constantly out of possition with no one on in the B slot and made the PU call time and instruct him to get back to A. It was quite the sight, funny thing was they all went against the home team who was paying them. :wave:

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Previously in the game the PU sent the same batter to first when the catcher with runners on 2nd and 3rd, to 1st when the catcher attempted to throw the ball to 3rd with the batter starting to step out of the box, which was now nothing less than a light color of clay. An argument ensued with the HC and PU goes back with the runner still on first, as the coach yells "can we appeal that" and the PU says sure; BU- who was not paying attention, signals out, than safe, than the umpires meet and talk for about 15 seconds, and leave the batter at 1st. It was a 3-1 count, they did not rule ball four, they just said since catcher hit the batter, he gets 1st base, same as HBP. :mellow:

WTF....I haven't the foggiest idea of what you are trying to convey here.

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You do realize that you have put this thread in the "Ejections" section of the forum right? And there is no mention of an ejection? My brain hurts trying to understand what you are getting at, but if you want people to give you some ideas on how to "handle" certain things, you should post them in the "Situations" part of the forum.

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WTF....I haven't the foggiest idea of what you are trying to convey here.

I think I got it (italics are my own thoughts based on the OP):

R2/R3. Late in the game, as the batter's box lines are gone. On a pitch that made the count 3-1, the catcher threw to 3B in an attempt to make a play on R2. The throw hit the batter, who was stepping out of the box. The PU awarded the batter 1B, stating he was hit by the throw. DC argues for a while, then says "Can you appeal it?" The PU asks BU what he saw; BU signals "out" and then "safe." Umpires get together, then leave batter at 1B.

If I'm right, then the umpires made more mistakes than I can count. If the batter moved into a throw in an attempt to retire a runner, then the batter should be out for interference and runners return to TOP base.

As for the the first situation, I would have ejected the catcher.

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WTF....I haven't the foggiest idea of what you are trying to convey here.

I think I got it (italics are my own thoughts based on the OP):

R2/R3. Late in the game, as the batter's box lines are gone. On a pitch that made the count 3-1, the catcher threw to 3B in an attempt to make a play on R2. The throw hit the batter, who was stepping out of the box. The PU awarded the batter 1B, stating he was hit by the throw. DC argues for a while, then says "Can you appeal it?" The PU asks BU what he saw; BU signals "out" and then "safe." Umpires get together, then leave batter at 1B.

If I'm right, then the umpires made more mistakes than I can count. If the batter moved into a throw in an attempt to retire a runner, then the batter should be out for interference and runners return to TOP base.

As for the the first situation, I would have ejected the catcher.

You sir are Karnack the magnificent.

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WTF....I haven't the foggiest idea of what you are trying to convey here.

I think I got it (italics are my own thoughts based on the OP):

R2/R3. Late in the game, as the batter's box lines are gone. On a pitch that made the count 3-1, the catcher threw to 3B in an attempt to make a play on R2. The throw hit the batter, who was stepping out of the box. The PU awarded the batter 1B, stating he was hit by the throw. DC argues for a while, then says "Can you appeal it?" The PU asks BU what he saw; BU signals "out" and then "safe." Umpires get together, then leave batter at 1B.

If I'm right, then the umpires made more mistakes than I can count. If the batter moved into a throw in an attempt to retire a runner, then the batter should be out for interference and runners return to TOP base.

As for the the first situation, I would have ejected the catcher.

Bingo, we have a winner. :givebeer:

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Cactus - you let players argue judgment calls? I don't think so...

I'm just saying a lot of people listen to TV announcers say "you can't argue balls and strikes" and they believe them. It's not illegal and you can't just eject someone for doing it. The only thing the rules say is that they can't leave their positions to argue balls and strikes after being warned.

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Cactus - you let players argue judgment calls? I don't think so...

I'm just saying a lot of people listen to TV announcers say "you can't argue balls and strikes" and they believe them. It's not illegal and you can't just eject someone for doing it. The only thing the rules say is that they can't leave their positions to argue balls and strikes after being warned.

How do you figure this isn't illegal???

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Cactus - you let players argue judgment calls? I don't think so...

I'm just saying a lot of people listen to TV announcers say "you can't argue balls and strikes" and they believe them. It's not illegal and you can't just eject someone for doing it. The only thing the rules say is that they can't leave their positions to argue balls and strikes after being warned.

Think again.

From the JEA:

9.02(a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball

is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player,

manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

Official Notes - Case Book - Comments: Players leaving their position in the field or on base, or managers or

coaches leaving the bench or coaches box, to argue on BALLS AND STRIKES will not be permitted. They should

be warned if they start for the plate to protest the call. If they continue, they will be ejected from the game.

Bold is my emphasis. Should you warn them. Sure. But that's relative to what has transpired in the game to that point. Read the bold section, yes it is "illegal".

Now that I understand the OP a little better, I'm warning him at the start, not asking him if he has a problem with me. If he chooses to stand up and continue, then he's done for the day.

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Bold is my emphasis. Should you warn them. Sure. But that's relative to what has transpired in the game to that point. Read the bold section, yes it is "illegal".

The point is that it is never correct to eject someone for arguing balls and strikes; the rules do not support that. Yelling from the dugout "that pitch was a strike" is no different than yelling "he was safe at first base".

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Bold is my emphasis. Should you warn them. Sure. But that's relative to what has transpired in the game to that point. Read the bold section, yes it is "illegal".

The point is that it is never correct to eject someone for arguing balls and strikes; the rules do not support that. Yelling from the dugout "that pitch was a strike" is no different than yelling "he was safe at first base".

Wow. You've got to be kidding me.

9.02(a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball

is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player,

manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

Leave the last part of it about leaving a position out of it. Just read above. NOBODY SHALL...............Should you warn them. Absolutely, just like in many other circumstances where an ejection is the penalty. How the heck do you figure the rules don't support it, when it's right in front of you. Under your theory all a coach has to do is hide in his position and he can argue any judgment call. Really? Really?

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9.02(a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball

is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player,

manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

Leave the last part of it about leaving a position out of it. Just read above. NOBODY SHALL...............Should you warn them. Absolutely, just like in many other circumstances where an ejection is the penalty. How the heck do you figure the rules don't support it, when it's right in front of you. Under your theory all a coach has to do is hide in his position and he can argue any judgment call. Really? Really?

The part you quoted means nothing. The manager can stop the game and come out on the field and argue with you if he doesn't like the call. That is objecting to a judgement decision but it is allowed. And the manager doesn't need to hide in the dugout to argue a call, he can come out and do it to your face....except for balls and strikes, he cannot leave his position to argue balls and strikes.

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9.02(a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball

is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player,

manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

Leave the last part of it about leaving a position out of it. Just read above. NOBODY SHALL...............Should you warn them. Absolutely, just like in many other circumstances where an ejection is the penalty. How the heck do you figure the rules don't support it, when it's right in front of you. Under your theory all a coach has to do is hide in his position and he can argue any judgment call. Really? Really?

The part you quoted means nothing. The manager can stop the game and come out on the field and argue with you if he doesn't like the call. That is objecting to a judgement decision but it is allowed. And the manager doesn't need to hide in the dugout to argue a call, he can come out and do it to your face....except for balls and strikes, he cannot leave his position to argue balls and strikes.

What? Objecting a judgement decision is allowed? Can you please show me where you get that?

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9.02(a) Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as, but not limited to, whether a batted ball

is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball, or whether a runner is safe or out, is final. No player,

manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions.

Leave the last part of it about leaving a position out of it. Just read above. NOBODY SHALL...............Should you warn them. Absolutely, just like in many other circumstances where an ejection is the penalty. How the heck do you figure the rules don't support it, when it's right in front of you. Under your theory all a coach has to do is hide in his position and he can argue any judgment call. Really? Really?

The part you quoted means nothing. The manager can stop the game and come out on the field and argue with you if he doesn't like the call. That is objecting to a judgement decision but it is allowed. And the manager doesn't need to hide in the dugout to argue a call, he can come out and do it to your face....except for balls and strikes, he cannot leave his position to argue balls and strikes.

Dude, it is staring you right in the face. The part I quoted means nothing? How do you figure it means nothing? Please justify this for me. Show me something, anything, anywhere that shows us that arguing these points is legal as you say. The fact is you can't.

For :censored: sakes look at the first part of the sentence...........The Umpires Decision is FINAL

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Do coaches argue judgment calls, sure. It is not legal but custom allows it to a point. How they do it decides if they stay or not. A youth player loudly objecting to balls and strikes is likely not going to end well. Players are the MLB level don't last long either but at the youth level, bang. The initial outburst by the catcher gets a, "That's enough." Anything more makes him go home.

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In LL seniors, most HS players, late in the game, the top of the 6th inning, after calling ball 3 on a 2-0 count, the catcher says to the umpire loud enough for the some of the crowd to hear "does it have to be right down the middle to be a strike?'. PU responds "you got a problem with me?", catcher gets up and turns to the PU, "yeah I do, your giving them(the other team) all the calls".

I have conversations with catchers regularly, as we all do, but if he takes it loud enough for everyone to hear he's getting "That's enough!" Another word and he is gone. If he turns to me and says anything :wave:. There are acceptable ways to have this discussion, but we keep it low key. He doesn't want to respect that, time for a new F2!!!

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The point is that it is never correct to eject someone for arguing balls and strikes; the rules do not support that. Yelling from the dugout "that pitch was a strike" is no different than yelling "he was safe at first base".

Wow. You've got to be kidding me.

No, I'm not kidding. The only difference in the rules between arguing out/safe and ball/strike is that they cannot leave their position to argue ball/strike.

Dude, it is staring you right in the face. The part I quoted means nothing? How do you figure it means nothing? Please justify this for me. Show me something, anything, anywhere that shows us that arguing these points is legal as you say. The fact is you can't.

For :censored: sakes look at the first part of the sentence...........The Umpires Decision is FINAL

I understand what you quoted is in the rule book but that is not how the game works. Just pretend that the sentence "No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions" doesn't exist. If a game was actually played like that a manager would never be able to go out on the field and argue.

There is a reason that the PBUC manual doesn't list "arguing balls and strikes" as a reason to eject someone. There is also a reason that it doesn't list "objecting to judgement decisions." Basically in every game they're going to argue judgement decisions with you. The manager might come out and argue a play at first base and get ejected, but you didn't eject him for objecting to a judgement decision...that is why he was arguing but something else caused him to be ejected. The pitching coach might be yelling at you from the dugout that some pitches were strikes and he ends up getting ejected....he was arguing balls and strikes but that is not why he was ejected. You have a reason to eject someone, to get back to the original point I was making, simply arguing balls and strikes is not a valid reason.

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I understand what you quoted is in the rule book but that is not how the game works. Just pretend that the sentence "No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions" doesn't exist. If a game was actually played like that a manager would never be able to go out on the field and argue.

There is a reason that the PBUC manual doesn't list "arguing balls and strikes" as a reason to eject someone. There is also a reason that it doesn't list "objecting to judgement decisions." Basically in every game they're going to argue judgement decisions with you. The manager might come out and argue a play at first base and get ejected, but you didn't eject him for objecting to a judgement decision...that is why he was arguing but something else caused him to be ejected. The pitching coach might be yelling at you from the dugout that some pitches were strikes and he ends up getting ejected....he was arguing balls and strikes but that is not why he was ejected. You have a reason to eject someone, to get back to the original point I was making, simply arguing balls and strikes is not a valid reason.

So I'm going to "pretend" it's not there. Alrighty then. I'm well aware of what happens in the confines of a baseball game, and the fact that at times we are going to "allow" a manager to question us about a judgment call, that's pretty standard fare. That manager/player/coach is going to continue in the game or do something else, like continuing to argue judgment calls, to get themselves ejected.

This isn't the issue I have with your post.

This is:

Cactus, on 09 June 2011 - 01:46 PM, said

I'm just saying a lot of people listen to TV announcers say "you can't argue balls and strikes" and they believe them. It's not illegal and you can't just eject someone for doing it. The only thing the rules say is that they can't leave their positions to argue balls and strikes after being warned.

It is illegal, and it isn't limited to just leaving their position, and it is certainly supported by the Rules. I don't think there is any question that in practice there are various ways that it's addressed, but don't give me some horsespit about you can't justify dumping someone that wants to continue to argue judgment calls.

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The point is that it is never correct to eject someone for arguing balls and strikes; the rules do not support that. Yelling from the dugout "that pitch was a strike" is no different than yelling "he was safe at first base".

Wow. You've got to be kidding me.

No, I'm not kidding. The only difference in the rules between arguing out/safe and ball/strike is that they cannot leave their position to argue ball/strike.

Dude, it is staring you right in the face. The part I quoted means nothing? How do you figure it means nothing? Please justify this for me. Show me something, anything, anywhere that shows us that arguing these points is legal as you say. The fact is you can't.

For :censored: sakes look at the first part of the sentence...........The Umpires Decision is FINAL

I understand what you quoted is in the rule book but that is not how the game works. Just pretend that the sentence "No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgment decisions" doesn't exist. If a game was actually played like that a manager would never be able to go out on the field and argue.

There is a reason that the PBUC manual doesn't list "arguing balls and strikes" as a reason to eject someone. There is also a reason that it doesn't list "objecting to judgement decisions." Basically in every game they're going to argue judgement decisions with you. The manager might come out and argue a play at first base and get ejected, but you didn't eject him for objecting to a judgement decision...that is why he was arguing but something else caused him to be ejected. The pitching coach might be yelling at you from the dugout that some pitches were strikes and he ends up getting ejected....he was arguing balls and strikes but that is not why he was ejected. You have a reason to eject someone, to get back to the original point I was making, simply arguing balls and strikes is not a valid reason.

Cautus:

I hate to tell you but arguing judgment can get you tossed. Coaches argue all the time, how they argue is what gets them tossed. To say that you can't get tossed for for arguing balls and strikes is just flat wrong. Ask Earl Weaver what he tossed out of a World Series game for. One of the auto ejections is a player drawing a line, that's balls and strikes.

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Cactus, I don't think you are going to convince many people here of your argument. LL9.02a, FED Rule 10, Article 4, sorry, don't have OBR handy...all say judgement calls are final and no player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to those decisions. This specifies strike/ball, fair/foul, and safe/out. Some umpires offer a little more latitude than others, but how many ejection threads have you read where the Manager starts on balls/strikes and the umpire gives the stop sign. If it is run through it is an ejection. Joe West had one a week or two ago that was discussed on the Pro thread with video to show it wasn't much at all to the uneducated viewer, but to us there was stop sign, stop sign ignored, and the toss. Pretty simple.

Most of the arguments you allude to are typically "discussions" as the manager knows he can ask what you had or that you go for help. If they still don't like the explanation or the help/refusal of help they then start to ARGUE A JUDGEMENT CALL and they get the old heave hoe! If the discussion starts with just the argument of said judgement call we just get to the EJ a little sooner.:Horse:

If you are letting coaches get away with this you are taking much more abuse than you should.

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One of the auto ejections is a player drawing a line, that's balls and strikes.

Yes, he is upset about the strike call but he is not ejected for arguing balls and strikes. Actions by team personnel specifically intended to ridicule an umpire are grounds for ejection (i.e., drawing a line in the dirt to demonstrate location of a pitch). That is what he was ejected for, he did an action intended to ridicule the umpire.

the Manager starts on balls/strikes and the umpire gives the stop sign. If it is run through it is an ejection. Joe West had one a week or two ago that was discussed on the Pro thread with video to show it wasn't much at all to the uneducated viewer, but to us there was stop sign, stop sign ignored, and the toss. Pretty simple.

He wasn't ejected because he was arguing balls and strikes. He was ejected because he was ordered to do something and he did not do it. There is a difference.

If someone is in the dugout yelling at you about some pitch he didn't like you can't just eject him. Yes, he is arguing balls and strikes but the rules don't support an ejection yet. He must be warned. Once he is warned then if he continues yelling you can eject him for ignoring your warning.

The thing to remember is that the manager can stand in the dugout and yell at you about every pitch the entire game. The manager can come out and argue with you for ten minutes about one call. The rules don't say to simply eject for those actions. You must tell the manager that you don't want him yelling at you about the pitches, you must tell the manager that the discussion is over and to return to his position and to not follow you. If he doesn't do what you told him then you can eject him. Remembering this will make your ejections much better as you will be able to get warnings in as well as making your ejections look better under the rules.

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