Jack_Wick

Legal pitch? Would a pitch executed like this be legal? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw

A legal pitching stance in windup is also the third image above (https://umpire-empire.com/uploads/monthly_2016_03/56e5d7e829ad7_WindUpFootPositions.thumb.jpg.87ca11e25412cbe43cd799fafc31fe3e.jpg), i.e. non pivot foot is behind a line running through the front edge of the plate and also the rule: "Rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber." So in this stance (free foot behind the rubber) would it still be possible to make a pickoff in 1B or 3B, even if the free foot is already behind the rubber for this rule: "Rule 6.02(a)(1) Comment: If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play."? His free foot is already behind the back edge of the rubber in this case. So could you still pickoff to 1B or 3B in this case?

It's not that unrealistic. If a pitcher fakes and his pivot foot stays attached to the rubber, he's still a pitcher. In FED, if you fake to 2B, you can step and throw to 2B or any other base. Unlike OBR, you don't have to step off the rubber. Well, what I'm asking is, once you've faked to 2B (but still engaged), can you turn in any direction (either clockwise or counterclockwise) and then step and throw anywhere? In my opinion, the moves I wrote above are all legal; why should they be illegal?

In OBR if you fake to 2B, without stepping off your pivot foot from the rubber in doing so, you can no longer throw to any other base, including 2B, right? But how would it work in FED? Fake a throw to 2B, without stepping off (not legal in OBR but legal in FED), and could you turn in any direction and then throw to either 1B or 3B? From 2019 NFHS case book plays 6.2.4: 6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk. So, a pitcher with his foot pointing toward 2B, after faking a pickoff, regardless of windup or set position, could, without stepping off the rubber, throw to bases 2B/1B or 3B by turning in any direction, that is: A. To 1B, could the pitcher turn before throwing, either 90° clockwise or 270° counterclockwise? B. To 2B, either directly, but does he have to step again first or not? Or do a 360° turn, either clockwise or counterclockwise, and throw to 2B? C. To 3B, either 90° counterclockwise or 270° counterclockwise and then throw to third base?

RHP OBR If you fake a pickoff to 2B, without stepping off your pivot foot from the rubber in doing so, you can no longer throw to any other base, including 2B? So if you fake to 2B, your foot stays on the rubber, and you throw to 1B, would that be a balk? Instead if you fake towards 2B, but your foot stays attached while doing so, to throw the ball to 1B/2B/3B you should step off your foot from the rubber first or not? How? Rule reference?

Yes, you're right. I mean if you start from the windup position and turn clockwise (180°) until you'll be facing second base, then you step and throw toward second base, would that be legal? Or would the umpire consider that an interrupted pitching motion?

RHP from windup position OBR a clockwise (270° turn) pickoff toward second base would be legal, right?

aaaaaa I'm on the verge of giving up trying to understand. To quote Churchill: Baseball is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma, really. Couldn't you answer my questions directly and simply, without cryptic half-messages? I truly feel like an ancient before the Sibyl. I'll try to summarize my desperate questions: 1. Okay, perfect, an inside move that reaches 1B is illegal. Thank God we got there. 2. How do you make pickoffs from the windup position? For "Rule 6.02(a)(1) Comment: If a left-handed or right-handed pitcher swings his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, he is required to pitch to the batter except to throw to second base on a pick-off play." any pickoff towards 1B (clockwise), towards 3B (counterclockwise) are illegal, both from windup and set postion. A. BUT from the windup position, a clockwise (270° turn) pickoff toward second base would be legal, this wouldn't violate the above rule, right? B. A legal pitching stance is also the third image above (https://umpire-empire.com/uploads/monthly_2016_03/56e5d7e829ad7_WindUpFootPositions.thumb.jpg.87ca11e25412cbe43cd799fafc31fe3e.jpg), i.e. non pivot foot is behind a line running through the front edge of the plate and also: "Rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber."; in this stance (free foot behind the rubber) would it still be possible to make a pickoff in 1B or 3B, even if the free foot is already behind the rubber? C. Is there a contradiction in the OBR rules? Here's what you can do in the windup position: Rule 5.07(a)(1) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber. From the Windup Position, the pitcher may: (A) deliver the ball to the batter, or (B) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or (C) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). But just before he also says this: "He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot." How the hell can someone not raise their foot to make a pickoff? D. Also, would this new type of pick, https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw , be legal, or not? 3. So in OBR if you fake to 2B, without stepping off your pivot foot from the rubber in doing so, you can no longer throw to any other base, including 2B? So if you fake to 2B, your foot stays on the rubber, and you throw to 1B, would that be a balk? Who says so? Instead if you fake towards 2B, but your foot stays attached while doing so, to throw the ball to 1B/2B/3B you should step off your foot from the rubber first or not? How? 4. How would it work in FED? Fake a throw to 2B, without stepping off (not legal in OBR but legal in FED), and could you turn in any direction and then throw to either 1B or 3B? So, a pitcher with his foot pointing toward 2B, after faking a pickoff, regardless of windup or set position, could, without stepping off the rubber, throw to bases 2B/1B or 3B by turning in any direction, that is: 4.1. To 1B, could the pitcher turn before throwing, either 90° clockwise or 270° counterclockwise? 4.2. To 2B, either directly, but does he have to step again first or not? Or do a 360° turn, either clockwise or counterclockwise, and throw to 2B? 4.3. To 3B, either 90° counterclockwise or 270° counterclockwise and then throw to third base? Stop, that's all. I'm hoping for real answers and not an ambiguous response from Apollo. Thanks

I just need you to answer my questions, please!

Okay, that makes sense. So, the only way to pickoff to 1B is counterclockwise, right? Sorry, I didn't know that. So a pitcher fakes a throw to 2B counterclockwise. 1. While faking, his pivot foot doesn't come off. If he now wanted to throw to 1B or 3B, would he necessarily have to step off the rubber? But after the pitcher steps to fake to 2B, his pivot foot would be pointing toward second base, so how should he disengage from the rubber? Should he, in this position (keeping his back to home plate after having moved toward 2B), always move his pivot foot backwards from the rubber? I mean, in a normal set position, the right side of the pivot foot moves toward 2B to disengage from the rubber. In the case of a fake to 2B, we would have the left side of the pivot foot pointing toward second base. So should the foot move beyond the rubber on the home base side (from the point of view of the turned pitcher, home base is now his back base) or should the pivot foot always move beyond the rubber towards second base (though it would now be the front of the turned pitcher)? 2. How would it work in FED? Fake a throw to 2B, without stepping off, and could you turn in any direction and then throw to either 1B or 3B? 3. Finally, back on topic, to make a pickoff from a windup position: 1. To 1B Step and throw directly without ever lifting the free foot. 2. To make a pickoff to 2B, do you have only one movement? A sort of jump turn? But wouldn't you have an inside move from a windup position? So you can only make a pickoff to 2B counterclockwise but not clockwise, right? 3. To 3B, just slide your free foot over your pivot foot and step to 3B? Without lifting it too high? Isn't that a bit too generic?

Technically an inside move to 2B or to 1B (clockwise) would be the same thing. So from a windup postion you can make a pickoff: 1. Towards 1B only by stepping counterclockwise? 2. Towards 2B only by stepping counterclockwise, and would it also be legal to do it clockwise? But why is it that from the set position you can do both the inside move (even as if you were starting the pitching motion clockwise) and the jump turn (counterclockwise), while in the windup position you can only turn counterclockwise? 3. Towards 3B only clockwise and without lifting the free foot? Technically, that's not true. You can fake a pickoff toward one base and, without stepping off the rubber, throw the ball to another base. But it's unclear how this can be done or in what direction. From 2019 NFHS case book plays 6.2.4: 6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk. Although it is a federal regulation and not OBR so I don't know to what extent these NFHS interpretations are valid for OBR? It's a new type of pitch but I don't know if it's legal or not although it should be legal as it doesn't violate any rules, at least I think so.

No, you could actually lift your free foot slightly and then step to 1B, which is legal. You could also turn and go to 2B, or go to 3B. But why would an inside move be illegal? Who says so? Where? Which of my examples would be illegal? "We know that without stepping off the rubber (pitcher's plate) the pitcher can make a pickoff, but how would you do it? 1. Can you pickoff to second base from a counterclockwise windup, like a spin move? 2. Can you always make a pickoff to 2B from the windup as a kind of inside move? That is, lifting your leg as if you were pitching but then turning and going towards 2B. 3. Basically, can you turn to pick from the windup position either clockwise or counterclockwise? 4. From windup to 1B you simply step to 1B and throw, right? 5. From windup to 3B you can step to 3B and throw, right? But could you also try lifting your leg, like you're pitching, but then throw to 3B? Like it's some kind of inside move" Of cases 1, 2, 3 (both from windup and set position), 4 (both from windup and set position), which would be illegal and why? "All cases will be with a right-handed pitcher and in the windup position, without stepping off the rubber. CASE 1: The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to second base then, continuing to turn counterclockwise, steps and throws to 3B for a pickoff. Legal? CASE 2: The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home but he fakes a pickoff to second base then, turning clockwise this time, steps and throws to 1B for a pickoff. Legal? CASE 3 3.1. from windup position The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, continuing to circle clockwise, steps and throws to pickoff to 1B. Legal? 3.2. the same from stretch position CASE 4 4.1. from windup position The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, it will only be to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) to second base or pitch to home, correct? Anyway he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, turning counterclockwise this time, steps and throws to pickoff to 3B. Legal? 4.2. the same from stretch position " 5.Furthermore, if a pitcher made an inside move I don't understand why it would be illegal to turn further and throw to first base clockwise instead . 6. Would a pitch executed like this be legal? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw Please answer each case individually, otherwise nothing will ever be understood. But I mean the pitcher did not break contact.

No, none of the questions I reposted have been answered. If someone had answered me, we'd be done right away.

Please let's proceed in order. All these questions about pickoff from windup position are remained unanswered. Could these questions be answered?: "All of this from Windup position: We know that without stepping off the rubber (pitcher's plate) the pitcher can make a pickoff, but how would you do it? 1. Can you pickoff to second base from a counterclockwise windup, like a spin move? 2. Can you always make a pickoff to 2B from the windup as a kind of inside move? That is, lifting your leg as if you were pitching but then turning and going towards 2B. 3. Basically, can you turn to pick from the windup position either clockwise or counterclockwise? 4. From windup to 1B you simply step to 1B and throw, right? 5. From windup to 3B you can step to 3B and throw, right? But could you also try lifting your leg, like you're pitching, but then throw to 3B? Like it's some kind of inside move." After all my cases posted above, which I believe are all legal. "All cases will be with a right-handed pitcher and in the windup position, without stepping off the rubber. CASE A: The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to second base then, continuing to turn counterclockwise, steps and throws to 3B for a pickoff. Legal? CASE B: The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home but he fakes a pickoff to second base then, turning clockwise this time, steps and throws to 1B for a pickoff. Legal? CASE 😄 C.1. from windup position The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, continuing to circle clockwise, steps and throws to pickoff to 1B. Legal? C.2. the same from stretch position CASE 😧 D.1. from windup position The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, it will only be to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) to second base or pitch to home, correct? Anyway he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, turning counterclockwise this time, steps and throws to pickoff to 3B. Legal? D.2. the same from stretch position " I knew this too but in the rules, OBR, there is none of this. It is only said about step and throw, stop. Furthermore, if a pitcher made an inside move I don't understand why it would be illegal to turn further and throw to first base clockwise instead . However, is there a sequence of legal and non-legal actions of this kind also for the pitcher in the windup position? I'm speaking from a purely theoretical standpoint. Obviously, let's assume there are runners, and therefore all these pickoff attempts are aimed at putting them out. Would such a pitch be legal? Would a pickoff from this type of pitch be legal? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw PS. For the moderators, can you please delete my message "Anyway, during the service, the fielders can't be in the penalty area, right?" PPS. For those who don't feel like responding, could you please refrain from filling the thread with useless posts