buckyswider

Good Great points! And sleeping on it, thanks to Senor Azul's gentle coaxing, I have solidly come down on that side of the line (pun definitely intended!) also. I also tried to justify to myself why I called this "one in a million", because surely it's not unfathomable that a ball can react the way this one did. But the anomalous part here is that it remained uncaught/untouched. Surely a ball hit high enough to have that kind of action after it hits the ground will give a fielder ample opportunity to at least have it clank off of his/her glove. But not this time! Adding to the my uncertainty "in the moment" is that that demarcation point- did the ball hit before or after the base?- is not one we're ever called to judge on other than balls *right* on the line, where it's obvious. So that line of thinking never entered my lil' brain. Would anyone else immediately have thought to gauge precisely where the ball landed? And yeah, unless it's obvious that it's past the bag, I would stick with "it didn't", because if this one confused me at first, I'm certain you'll have ejections from the defense after you rule this a hit because it *just* reached the baseline before popping foul!! Thanks for the discussion all.

I present the counterpoint: FOUL BALL: A batted ball that: A. Settles or is touched (not caught) on or over foul territory between home and first base or between home and third base. To be transparent, your "fair" call makes more sense to me considering the inverse: a ball hits a few feet past first or third in foul territory, then spins back toward home and fair territory and ends up settling in fair territory before the respective base. That's intuitively a foul ball as soon as it touches down. I can find no internet references of my situation (with the ball clearly touching past the base) on the interwebs. Probably a one in a million play.

I may have had this happen last night. first and second, no out. really high pop up down near first base. I call "infield fly, if fair!". 1Bman totally whiffs on the ball and it hits either just before, even with, or just beyond the 1B bag, about 3 feet on the fair side of the line. Ball had a nasty spin, and it kicked backwards and toward the foul line. Ball ends up going over the foul line before first base. This was a USA softball coed rules game, but i imagine the interpretation would be similar in all codes. From my vantage point behind home plate, i really couldn't tell precisely where the ball landed (and truthfully i didn't even consider the conundrum at the time), so I just called it foul and that was that. If that ball had clearly landed beyond the base, should I have ruled it a fair ball (and, in this situation, batter out?)

Awesome, thanks! I did find that article; here is the direct link: https://baseballscouter.com/what-happens-in-baseball-if-the-ball-hits-the-foul-pole/ Interesting in that the 1955 rule book I just procured has no mention of this. But I did notice that there were many, many variation of rule books published by different entities back then- the one I have is published by "The National Baseball Congress of America", "reprinted by special permission from OFFICIAL BASEBALL RULES COMPLETELY REVISED 1955". So maybe this book is only a subset of what is contained in the latter? Wilson, The Sporting News, Kessler, Baseball Digest, etc., all have their own publications. Maybe one of yours has the full set which contains our topic of discussion? I wish I could find a copy of that "OFFICIAL BASEBALL RULES COMPLETELY REVISED 1955"....

Hi there, someone brought up an umpire question from a 1955 Topps baseball card. It's very curious.... the question: "In the American League, is it a Homer if the ball hits that foul pole"? And the "answer": "Yes, if it bounces into the stands fair. Otherwise: a double". This is a new one on me. Anybody know the history of this rule and when it changed to what we all know today??

But that qualifier is only present in point 3....

Oops, sorry, I quoted the wrong reply. But lol that story!

But that qualifier is only present in point 3....

Leafing through the rulebook in preparation for my first fastpitch softball game in quite some time. I came across this rule that has, for the moment, confused me. SECTION 4 - RUNNERS ARE ENTITLED TO ADVANCE WITH LIABILITY TO BE PUT OUT A. (Fast/Modified Pitch) When the ball leaves the pitcher’s hand on the delivery. B. On a thrown ball or a fair batted ball that is not blocked. C. On a thrown ball that hits an umpire. D. When a legally caught fly ball is first touched by a defensive player. E. If a fair ball: 1 Contacts an umpire or a runner after having passed a fielder other than the pitcher, provided no other fielder had a chance to make an out, or: 2 When a fair batted ball has been touched by a fielder, including the pitcher, and the runner did not intentionally interfere with the batted ball or the fielder attempting to field the batted ball. Effect - Section 4A-E: The ball remains live. F. (Men’s & Women’s Slow Pitch) Runners may advance when the ball reaches home plate, or: 1 When a pitched ball is batted. 2 Until the pitcher has possession of the ball in the infield and all playing action has ceased. 3 (Slow Pitch with stealing) Runners may advance when a pitched ball, legal or illegal, reaches the front edge of home plate. 4 When a pitched ball that hits behind home plate and strikes the umpire, or a thrown ball by the catcher that strikes the umpire. Exception: 3and 4 do not apply to Master's, Senior's Coed, Junior Olympic Girls and Junior Olympic Boys 10U, 12U, 14U, and 16U Slow Pitch (Bolding mine, as they are the points of my confusion). Section F seems to refer to, given no other context, a pitched ball. Unless I've been asleep way too long, runners in Men's and Women's slow pitch cannot advance on a pitched ball unless it becomes a batted ball. And clause 4: Given the indentation of this under section F, I think we are to assume that it's application is Men's and Women's slow pitch, right? Again, as with F, there's no advancement in slow pitch, right? Quite possibly it's been too long a day and I'm missing something really, really, obvious...so please help. Thanks!

Yep, that's why I said "maybe I should've DDB'd an obstruction". Revisionist history and all that, but I'd like to think I would've come back to that had it been consequential to the eventual outcome of the play...but as it was, F3 gave up all efforts to retrieve the ball and instead was chirping for interference. So R1 never broke stride and got to second without a play. Still though, yep, when my brain decided it wasn't INT I should've stuck out my right fist.

Although it's a bit dated (from the USA March 2014 interpretations newsletter), it appears my call is correct as per USA interpretations. (Well, maybe not- maybe I should've DDB'd an obstruction!). PLAY: With R1 on 2B, B2 hits a ground ball to F6 who tries to field the ball and bobbles it. R1, trying to advance to 3B, attempts to get around F6 who is picking up the deflected batted ball. In doing so, R1 bumps F6 advancing to 3B. The umpire calls “dead ball” and calls R1 out for interference because the ball has not passed F6 and F6 still had an opportunity to make an out on B2. Ruling: Incorrect ruling. If protested correctly, the umpire should reverse his ruling and “obstruction” should be called since this interference was not intentional. When a runner intentionally interferes with any defensive player having the opportunity to make an out with the deflected batted ball, the ball is dead and the runner is out. All other runners must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. Rule 8, Section 7J[4] USA has an index of all their rule clarifications, and I didn't see this one initially because the text didn't specifically say anything about "Deflected" like the other one I went to (where it deflects from one player to another)- this one just is titled "Interference on Runner". But I happened to notice the 8,7J[4] reference in the index so I checked it out and, lo and behold, it's extremely similar to my play.

Thanks for the reply BB! Do you have specific knowledge that this is also a USA/ASA thing? Based on your response, I did some googling on the phrase, and there's a few other threads (none here) where they debate this and the consensus seems to be it's only a FED thing. And not just pushing the issue because, as much as I want to have been right tonight, that ship has sailed and I want to make sure I'm right NEXT time. Wondering if maybe this is something I should submit to USA for their monthly rules clarification newsletter...

p.s. my hands may or may not have made it to about stomach level before my brain decided on "no call", which may have been a little impetus for the defense's ire (yes, i was working solo)

USA softball rules. (Although as is common, if codes disagree please point it out for those who work multiple rulesets). R1 on first, one out. Hard one hopper to 1B/F3. As R1 is getting close to F3, ball clanks off of F3's glove and back towards the plate- ends up about 4 or 5 feet in front of F3. As F3 starts to stride forward to retrieve the ball, R1 collides with F3. I made no call, which of course elicited lots of noise from the defensive team. Am I right to consider this a "deflected ball" as described in USA 8.7(J)(4) or could I conceivably had extended the protection afforded in 8.7(J)(1) to F3? SECTION 7 - THE RUNNER IS OUT . . . J. When a runner interferes: 1 With a fielder attempting to field a batted fair ball or a foul fly ball, or 2 With a fielder attempting to throw the ball, or 3 With a thrown ball. Effect: a The ball is dead. b The runner is out. c The batter-runner is awarded first base. d Runners must return to the last base touched at the time of the interference. e If the interference, in the umpire's judgment, is an attempt to prevent a double play and occurs before the runner is put out, the immediate trailing runner shall also be called out. f If the interference prevents the fielder from catching a routine fly ball, fair or foul, with ordinary effort, the batter is also out. 4 Intentionally with any defensive player having the opportunity to make an out with the deflected batted ball.

Thanks guys! Geez, I'm fairly certain I've seen Cowboy Joe West deny a catcher's request for an appeal...

Hi all, I'm certain I've seen situations in the past where a catcher has asked the HP umpire to appeal a check swing called a ball, and HP ump has refused the request. Throughout my career I've always been under the impression that it was at the discretion of the HP ump whether to ask for help on this or not. Somebody now has pointed out to me the 8.0.2(c) comment (emphasis mine): So have I been wrong all these years? Can anyone else recall a situation where the HP ump refused to appeal when requested? Thanks!

I guess this is sort of an aside to the entire point of the discussion in this particular forum- which is (IMO) more about mechanics, interpretations, and rules- but in the end, does anyone have an opinion on whether the ball was actually fair or foul? I haven't seen any angles or videos that show me enough to even try to decide. Again, it's an aside to our discussion, but what does anyone think?

just a point of clarity- on the pitch we had R1, not R2. So in the case of (B), it would have to be (IMO) overwhelming evidence that F7 didn't ever give up on the play after U3's signal.

Two related but somewhat tangential questions about this play: 1- what is the UH's duty to signify that the run counted? Unlike many Gnat's fans on social media, I'm pretty certain that the confirmation shouldn't be made until the possibility of appeal has passed. Otherwise, it gives the defense an unfair advantage. (Also, I guess a case can be made that such signalling is not "public"- it's to ensure the official scorer- and only the official scorer- that s/he has recorded the play properly). Jaska/Roder (older edition) is silent on this. 2- What is the proper defensive appeal procedure after a third out but after time has been called? I didn't see any U signal it, but the Pie-Rats manager running onto the field was effectively a time out call. If the defense was savvy enough to have asked for a subsequent appeal, does the pitcher have to toe the rubber (without a batter in the vicinity of the batter's box!) to put the ball back in-play so an appeal could be made?? Thanks!

Thanks, I read that thread and did a little more surfing. I think I see where I screwed up. Shaking the cobwebs off, I recall I would always lean towards an "attempt" when a batter/runner made a turn of more than a foot or two to the left on a play where there's a potential advance- like an overthrown ball. The reasoning behind that is that I always thought that in this scenario, the b/r would in fact gain an unfair advantage should in fact they decide to try for second. Judgement call for sure, but I always leaned that way. Fast forward, I forgot my thought process vis-a-vis the rule in that situation, and only remembered the "advantage" part. I'm not excusing myself or trying to justify myself- I just value learning why I made a mistake or had a misconception so I don't repeat it in the future. But thanks for setting me straight here. I'm sure I'll be around these parts a lot as my return to the diamond continues!

lol

I didn't think intent was in play here...just the case that he's now 6 feet closer to his next destination was all that matters. Obviously I don't *know*, and would appreciate opinions from all!

Interesting, thanks! That's something I hadn't even considered. So if the play hadn't been close, and B/R called safe, his movement towards second would've/should've immediately resulted in a "passing" violation, and again given R1 "protection" from being tagged while in contact with first. Yes, it is very interesting! What would the situation be if B/R, (after having hypothetically being ruled safe), instead of going toward second, had rebounded into foul ground or straight down the line? Would that still be considered passing??

Hi all, I may be overthinking this, but I can't figure out what the umpires decided to call on this play. It's at about 2:20 of the highlight video down below. Situation is runner on 1st, one out. Infield pop up by the batter (Bohm) between the mound and first. The runner on first (Hoskins) stays parked on the bag. 1bman lets the ball fall to the ground untouched. Bohm, who had not been running hard, sprints to first as the 1Bman picks up the ball and throws to first to the 2bman who was covering. It's a bang bang play and the 1B ump calls the batter/runner out. Replay shows that B/R actually beats the throw. The batting team had already wasted their challenge, so no replay review is possible (probably wouldn't have been fruitful anyway, with the possible advantage of replacing the piano-carrying Hoskins with the fleeter Bohm on 1B). So I'm wondering: was the B/R called out simply as a result of a kicked call? (Not throwing shade here, it was bang-bang, with a lot of moving parts and extraneous players ). Or was there something else going on? Had the "proper" safe call happened on the B/R, the covering defender (2bman) did then tag R1 still standing on first, so an out would have happened either way. (Interestingly, as a result of a slight collision with the covering defender, B1 ended up about 5 feet on the infield side of the line, so if a safe call had been made, I can forsee a situation where R1 is called out on the tag, and then B1 is tagged out before returning to first. But I digress) By the way, if any of you heard the Phillies telecast, it was infuriating, as the PBP guy kept saying that "the lead runner has the right to the bag, which is why the batter was called out". Which of course is not the case here, and R1 is forced to advance. So am I overthinking this and B/R was just called out by what replay showed to be an incorrect (albeit very very close) call? Thanks!