Jump to content

Senor Azul

Established Member
  • Posts

    2,014
  • Joined

  • Days Won

    27

Everything posted by Senor Azul

  1. 2019 rule 8-4 ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he: b. does not legally slide and causes illegal contact and/or illegally alters the actions of a fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases; or 1. A runner may slide in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. 2. Runners are never required to slide, but if a runner elects to slide, the slide must be legal. (2-32-1, 2-32-2) Jumping, hurdling, and leaping are all legal attempts to avoid a fielder as long as the fielder is lying on the ground. Diving over a fielder is illegal. PENALTY: The runner is out. Interference is called and the ball is dead immediately. On a force-play slide with less than two outs, the runner is declared out, as well as the batter-runner. Runners shall return to the bases occupied at the time of the pitch. With two outs, the runner is declared out. The batter is credited with a fielder’s choice. 2-32 ART. 1 . . . A legal slide can be either feet first or head first. If a runner slides feet first, at least one leg and buttock shall be on the ground. If a runner slides, he must slide within reach of the base with either a hand or a foot. A runner may slide or run in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder (8-4-2b). 2-32 ART. 2 . . . A slide is illegal if: a. the runner uses a rolling, cross-body or pop-up slide into the fielder, or b. the runner’s raised leg is higher than the fielder’s knee when the fielder is in a standing position, or c. except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder. At home plate, it is permissible for the slider’s momentum to carry him through the plate in a straight line (baseline extended), or d. the runner slashes or kicks the fielder with either leg, or e. the runner tries to injure the fielder, or f. the runner, on a force play, does not slide on the ground and in a direct line between the two bases.
  2. Official Baseball Rules defines how an at-bat ends as follows-- 5.04(c) Completing Time at Bat A batter has legally completed his time at bat when he is put out or becomes a runner. Since the batter has not been put out or become a base runner he has not legally completed his at-bat. Put him back up to complete his at-bat.
  3. Well, Mr. The Man in Blue, I do have the ambition and I couldn’t find anything that supports your assertion about high school softball rules about HBP. So, I would like you to provide some supporting evidence to your contention that the pitched ball must hit the body and not the hair. Here’s some of what I found-- 2020 NFHS Softball rule 2 SECTION 64 TOUCHING Touching is contact with the ball, equipment or a person. There is no distinction between the act of touching and being touched. It applies to a pitched ball touching a batter, a batted ball touching the batter or any runner, catcher touching the bat, player touching a base, or ball touching a player or non-player. The term applies to contact with any part of the person or her clothing if the clothing is reasonably well fitted. 2020 NFHS Softball rule 8-1-2b and 8-1-2c A pitched ball that is entirely within the batter's box strikes the batter or her clothing. No attempt to avoid the pitch is required. However, the batter may not obviously try to get hit by the pitch. A pitched ball (not entirely in the batter's box) not swung at nor called a strike touches any part of the batter's person or clothing. It does not matter if the ball strikes the ground before hitting the batter. The batter's hands are not to be considered part of the bat. If no attempt is made to avoid being hit, the batter will not be awarded first base unless it is ball four. The most recent case book I have is the 2019 edition and in it there are four case plays under rule 8 (8.1.2D through G) and I found two case plays about HBP under rule 5 (5.1.1B and C). None of those six case plays mentions that hitting just the hair does not count as a HBP.
  4. Well, Mr. johnnyg08, I also have the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual and I am looking at the exact page I cited. The citation I gave is absolutely correct--I don't know why there would be any discrepancy between my copy and yours. Section 5.12 talks about OBR rule 5.06(a)(1) if that helps at all. My copy has 183 pages counting blank end pages and it shows a copyright date of 2021.
  5. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.12, p. 55): A runner does not acquire the right to an unoccupied base on an attempt to retire the runner until he touches it before he is put out. This is true regardless of whether the umpire’s act of not making a call signifies to the defensive team that the runner failed to touch the base for purposes of an appeal play. Play 1: Batter-runner hits a ground ball and beats the play at first base but misses the bag as he passes it with both feet. Ruling 1: The proper mechanic is for the umpire to make no call on the play because the batter-runner has not yet touched first base. If the defense appeals by tagging the runner (or base) and appealing that the runner missed first base before the runner returns to first base, the batter-runner would be declared out… This text was new in the book for the 2018 season in Minor League Baseball. It further explained that the interpretation was added to clarify that on plays where the batter-runner overruns and misses first base and has both feet beyond the base before a play is made there, the umpire should make no “Safe” call (i.e., make no call on the play).
  6. Your question, Mr. ousafe, reminds me of a very famous barnstorming team called the House of David. They took on all comers from the Majors and Minors, the Negro Leagues, and any local semi-pro teams. What made them distinctive was that every member of the team had long-flowing hair and beards of Biblical proportions. They came from a place in Michigan called Benton Harbor and played from about 1915 till about 1955. I couldn’t find any anecdotes about their tonsorial splendor causing any problems with the rules though.
  7. From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (chapter 2, p. 22): The ball becomes live again once (5.12)… (a) every umpire discontinues his signaling of time, and (b) the pitcher has the ball in-contact with the pitching rubber. The plate umpire recognizes time during warm-up pitches. When he is in position, preparing to rule on a pitch to a batter, he may point to the pitcher to emphasize his discontinuation of time, and this is called “putting the ball in play.” This point does not in itself create a live ball—nor is it required of the umpire—but is often useful, especially with runners on base. The Preface to the book tells us that “items in italics are innovations unique or original to the Jaksa/Roder manual…In other cases they are interpretations of plays or rules that have not yet been specifically addressed by the Major or Minor Leagues…Bear in mind that the process for making new rules interpretations in the Major and Minor Leagues can be very involved; oftentimes many opinions must be considered. Be that as it may, the words and interpretations herein printed in italics are not to be considered those officially used on the fields of professional baseball.”
  8. I would agree that the definition of the term person is indeed relevant here. But I would also say that it is incomplete here. I think you also need to add the definition of touch-- 2021 OBR Definitions TOUCH. To touch a player or umpire is to touch any part of his body, or any uniform or equipment worn by him (but not any jewelry (e.g., necklaces, bracelets, etc.) worn by a player). (Touch) Comment: Equipment shall be considered worn by a player or umpire if it is in contact with its intended place on his person. Upon first glance your question would seem to be a bit facetious but it does have some serious ramifications when it comes to such things as dangling laces and jewelry. For example, the 2021 MiLBUM tells us… Hanging laces attached to a defensive player’s glove shall count when determining whether or not a ball was touched over fair territory and whether or not a catcher interfered with a batter’s attempt to strike at a pitched ball. As stated in the definition of a Tag, contact with hanging laces alone does not constitute a tag.
  9. 2019 NFHS Case Book play 2.28.3 Situation A: R3 and R1 with no outs. F1 contacts the pitcher’s plate and assumes the set position stance. As he begins his stretch, R1 advances toward second base attempting to steal. F1 realizes R1 is stealing but he does not throw to second, fearing that R3 will break for home and score. F1 completes his stretch, coming to a pause with the ball in both hands in front of his body. R1 reaches second and rounds it, after which F1 delivers the ball to B3, who fouls a pitch into the stands. RULING: R1 is allowed to remain on second because he was there prior to the time of the pitch. The definition of “time of the pitch” determines the base to which R1 is entitled. For all three codes, the time of pitch for the set position “occurs the instant the pitcher, after coming to a complete and discernible stop, starts any movement of his arms or legs that commits him to pitch.” (FED rule 2-28-3)
  10. To our guest, John Holland, according to the 2016 BRD (section 166, p. 126), at least one of the pro umpire schools frowns upon the usage of the do-not-pitch signal. OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: [The Wendelstedt school teaches that] the “Do not pitch” signal is not an appropriate mechanic. If the pitcher delivers a pitch when the batter is not appropriately ready, call an illegal pitch. (email to Childress, 7/13/12) And the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 9.4, p. 152) seems to agree— “Before the first pitch of an inning or following any dead situation, the plate umpire should be sure that the pitcher does not deliver the pitch before the batter is ready. It is acceptable for the umpire to put up his right hand up in front of his body at least head height to prevent the pitcher from delivering a pitch before the batter is set. This signal should only be used to indicate that the ball is still dead following the calling of time and never used to initiate the call of time. The plate umpire should always raise both hands above his head when initiating the call of time.” So, technically, when an MLB umpire signals do not pitch it is supposed to be a continuation of the dead ball situation and not an immediate dead ball.
  11. From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (Chapter 6, p. 48): During continuous action, and only during continuous action, the force can be removed and also reinstated… A force is reinstated if a consecutive runner who had acquired his advance base returns past such base in retreat toward his time-of-pitch base (assuming the force has not yet been removed). From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.14, p. 55) we can get the definition of a runner passing a base— “A runner is considered to have passed a base if he has both feet on the ground beyond the back edge of the base or beyond the edge of the base in the direction to which he is advancing.” From the description given in the OP we had no break in the action so the force could be reinstated. Going by the definition of passing a base I would say that once the runner had both feet on the ground toward first base he has passed the base and reinstated the force.
  12. Since the OP is asking about FED rules here are some things to keep in mind. Rule 3-2-1 says a team may use base coaches—they are not required by rule to be there. This rule also states that the base coach may (only) address his base runner(s) or his batter. Rule 3-3-1f tells us that a coach shall not commit any unsportsmanlike act to include, but not limited to, 1. use of words or actions to incite or attempt to incite spectators demonstrations, 2. use of profanity, intimidation tactics, remarks reflecting unfavorably upon any other person, or taunting or baiting. The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting. 4. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play;
  13. You could search the term umpire signals on YouTube and get several videos on the topic. Or you could look in the back of any year high school baseball rule book. There you will find Play-Pics of every official signal used in high school baseball with a brief explanation on how to perform each one.
  14. Senor Azul

    Rundown

    Here is the NFHS rule under discussion (and alluded to by Mr. SH0102 in his OP)-- 2019 NFHS rule 8 SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he: a. runs more than three feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged or to hinder a fielder while the runner is advancing or returning to a base; 2. When a play is being made on a runner or batter-runner, he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.
  15. Senor Azul

    Rundown

    You know, it used to be that guys like yawetag and others of our current grumpy veterans thought that they had scored a major gotcha when they pointed out a post was made concerning a different rule set than what was asked about in the OP. In this instance the OP asked about the “NFHS rule set” and that was how I answered with a rules interpretation from the FED rules editor and a FED online case play. But, this time, I am glad that Mr. noumpere brought in all those really old OBR citations because I have a good current one. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.41, p. 58): When determining whether a base runner should be called out under Rule 5.09(b)(1), so long as the umpire determines that a play is being made on the runner and an attempt to tag is occurring (i.e., the fielder is moving to tag the runner), no physical tag attempt is required to call a runner out for leaving the basepath.
  16. To our guest, by rule the batter-runner cannot be credited with a triple because a preceding runner was declared out at the plate— 2021 NCAA rule 10-6b Note: Do not credit the batter with a three-base hit when a preceding runner is put out at the plate, or would have been out but for an error. Do not credit the batter with a two-base hit when a preceding runner trying to advance from first base is put out at third base, or would have been out but for an error. When the R1 was appealed and called out, the out is considered to have occurred at the time of the infraction. If your batter-runner had only legally attained first base and not yet touched second base when R1 missed the plate he would be credited with just a single.
  17. Senor Azul

    Rundown

    From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (section 454, p. 301): Runner Establishes Base Path FED: When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2) Official Interpretation: Hopkins: The “skunk in the outfield” is legal. A runner may lead off any way he likes toward the next base and is not guilty of an infraction unless he uses more than three feet on either side of his base path to avoid a tag. (Website 2000 #20; affirmed, website 2005 #16) 2000 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, R1 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off R1. R1 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R1’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base.(8-4-2a) It would appear that a throw to retire a runner is sufficient to call it a play. Once a runner is in a rundown I would think that would be a play. After all, what is a rundown if it isn’t an attempt to retire a runner? I think a discussion as to what constitutes a play would be in order here.
  18. Senor Azul

    Scoring

    The question is about the game winning hit by Yadier Molina in a game between the Cubs and Cardinals. The game went into extra innings so the tie-breaker was used with a runner being placed at second base to start the half-inning. That runner advanced two bases to score the winning run on Molina’s book rule double. Unfortunately for Molina he did not advance two bases on the hit so he is credited with only a single and not the double he could have been credited with. 2021 OBR rule 9.06(f) Subject to the provisions of Rule 9.06(g), when a batter ends a game with a safe hit that drives in as many runs as are necessary to put his team in the lead, the Official Scorer shall credit such batter with only as many bases on his hit as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run, and then only if the batter runs out his hit for as many bases as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run. Rule 9.06( f ) Comment: The Official Scorer shall apply this rule even when the batter is theoretically entitled to more bases because of being awarded an “automatic” extra-base hit under various provisions of Rules 5.05 and 5.06(b)(4). The Official Scorer shall credit the batter with a base touched in the natural course of play, even if the winning run has scored moments before on the same play. For example, the score is tied in the bottom of the ninth inning with a runner on second base and the batter hits a ball to the outfield that falls for a base hit. The runner scores after the batter has touched first base and continued on to second base but shortly before the batter-runner reaches second base. If the batter-runner reaches second base, the Official Scorer shall credit the batter with a two-base hit.
  19. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.47, pp. 74-75): Play 13: Runner on first, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air and is caught by the third baseman for an out. The runner on first is nearly to second base when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into the stands. At the time of the throw, the runner from first has not quite reached second base. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop. j. Doesn’t the act of the third baseman throwing the ball out of play nullify a succeeding appeal attempt? That is, hasn’t the defense erred on its first attempt to appeal? Ruling: No. The wild throw by the third baseman is part of the continuous action created by the batter hitting the ball and does not nullify a subsequent appeal after the continuous action has ended.
  20. This question has been discussed several times before and as recently as this past May. In OBR only a viable runner can assist another runner. The NCAA definitely rules differently. From the 2016 BRD (section 328, p. 217): OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.8, p. 100): …A runner is allowed to assist another runner physically; however, all other members of the offensive team (e.g., base coaches, on-deck batter, a runner who had just scored or has been put out, a batter, etc.) are not allowed to assist…
  21. Funny thing, Mr. beerguy55 et al., is that you would have been right in your scoring interpretation had this been 1950-1954. DETERMINING VALUE OF BASE HITS 1950 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the scorer believes the hit would have been a legitimate home run, despite illegal use of equipment, he shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. 1953 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the umpire awards the batter a home run, despite illegal use of equipment, the scorer shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. Charge the fielder guilty of the rules violation with an error whenever a runner or runners are advanced two bases under playing rule 7.05 (d). 1954 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the umpire awards the batter a home run, despite illegal use of equipment, the scorer shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. Charge the fielder guilty of the rules violation with an error whenever a runner or runners are advanced two bases under playing rule 7.05 (d and e). By 1957 the rule had become 10.07(e): When the batter-runner is awarded two bases, three bases or a home run under the provisions of Playing Rule 7.05, he shall be credited with a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run, as the case may be. The 1957 rule has remained pretty much the same ever since. The odd thing about the evolution of this rule is that it has gone the exact opposite of what one would expect if your interpretation of scoring were correct. As for Mr. Wirkmaa’s interpretation of current rule 9.06(e), his book came out in 2003 and it was reviewed by SABR Bookshelf and Baseball Digest magazine among others. Nobody claimed to have found a glaring error in his interpretation of that rule or any other--until now when it has not passed muster under the heavy scrutiny of U-E’s resident experts.
  22. Senor Azul

    Runs Scoring

    From Carl Childress’ 2016 Baseball Rule Differences (section 260, p. 170): Force Play: Not Removed for Appeal of Baserunning Error FED: A force in effect at the time of the pitch remains in effect for the entire play only if a baserunning error occurs BEFORE a following runner is put out. NCAA: If a runner is put out during live action, his out does not remove the force on any preceding runner who might later be called out for a baserunning infraction. (8-5j Ex) OBR: Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: If an out on a following runner occurs before a runner reaches his forced base, the force is removed. Any appeal upheld for missing that base would not be a force out. Same as FED 8-2 Penalty. Play 125-260: Bases loaded, 1 out. B1 slaps an apparent extra-base hit, but he is thrown out trying for second (2 outs). On appeal, R2 is called out for missing third (3 outs). Ruling: R3’s run does not count—but for different reasons at different levels. In NCAA, the run is canceled because the force remained in effect throughout the play. In FED and OBR, the force in effect at the time of the pitch remained throughout the play because the running error occurred BEFORE the out at second.
  23. Old Man Kenny, there probably are other considerations. From the current NFHS rule book rule 4-2-4 tells us that state associations may adopt game-ending procedures… NFHS rule 4-2 ART. 4 . . . A state association may adopt game-ending procedures that determine how games are ended, including suspended games. However, if a state does not adopt game ending procedures, by mutual agreement of the opposing coaches and the umpire-in-chief, any remaining play may be shortened or the game terminated. If a state association has adopted game-ending procedures, only those game-ending procedures may be used, should the opposing coaches wish to terminate a game. For the state of New York that association is the New York State Public High School Athletic Association (NYSPHSAA). In its current handbook it has the following-- 9. Tied and Suspended Game Rule: To be used for NYSPHSAA Championship Tournament. May also be used during regular season play with Section approval: 2. If a game is stopped before it becomes an official game, the game is a suspended game. This game will be picked up at that point. Score, inning, count of batter etc. should all be recorded in the scorebook.
  24. Mr. ArchAngel72, the point of this whole thread is that FED rules differently on this question. In high school baseball, if a pitcher chooses to use the Set Position with no runners on board, he must still come to a complete stop. If he does not, it is considered an illegal pitch and the penalty is a ball added to the count. Here’s the official interpretation for this issue from the 2016 BRD (section 426, p. 284): Official Interpretation: Rumble: The “discernible, clearly recognizable stop’ is required with or without runners. Both NCAA and OBR actually spell out in their respective rule books that a complete stop is not required for a pitcher using the Set Position with no runners on.
  25. Yes, Jake, it is a catch. Here’s the rule and a case play to clarify the rule. 2020 NFHS Softball Rule 2 SECTION 9 CATCH ART. 4 . . . For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch. A fielder who catches a ball while contacting or stepping on a collapsible fence, which is not completely horizontal, is credited with a catch. 2019 NFHS Softball Case Book Play 5.1.1 Situation K: While attempting to make a catch, F3 (a) leaves live-ball territory with one foot and then steps back into live-ball territory to make the catch, or (b) dives from live-ball territory and, before coming to rest landing completely in dead-ball territory, makes the catch. RULING: In (a) and (b), the catch is permitted. In (b), the ball becomes dead as soon as either one of F3’s feet touches completely in dead-ball territory, or any other part of her body touches dead-ball territory. Runners are awarded one base. (5-1-1i NOTE, 8-4-3h)
×
×
  • Create New...