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Senor Azul

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Everything posted by Senor Azul

  1. From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual (Chapter 6, p. 48): During continuous action, and only during continuous action, the force can be removed and also reinstated… A force is reinstated if a consecutive runner who had acquired his advance base returns past such base in retreat toward his time-of-pitch base (assuming the force has not yet been removed). From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.14, p. 55) we can get the definition of a runner passing a base— “A runner is considered to have passed a base if he has both feet on the ground beyond the back edge of the base or beyond the edge of the base in the direction to which he is advancing.” From the description given in the OP we had no break in the action so the force could be reinstated. Going by the definition of passing a base I would say that once the runner had both feet on the ground toward first base he has passed the base and reinstated the force.
  2. Since the OP is asking about FED rules here are some things to keep in mind. Rule 3-2-1 says a team may use base coaches—they are not required by rule to be there. This rule also states that the base coach may (only) address his base runner(s) or his batter. Rule 3-3-1f tells us that a coach shall not commit any unsportsmanlike act to include, but not limited to, 1. use of words or actions to incite or attempt to incite spectators demonstrations, 2. use of profanity, intimidation tactics, remarks reflecting unfavorably upon any other person, or taunting or baiting. The NFHS disapproves of any form of taunting. 4. behavior in any manner not in accordance with the spirit of fair play;
  3. You could search the term umpire signals on YouTube and get several videos on the topic. Or you could look in the back of any year high school baseball rule book. There you will find Play-Pics of every official signal used in high school baseball with a brief explanation on how to perform each one.
  4. Senor Azul

    Rundown

    Here is the NFHS rule under discussion (and alluded to by Mr. SH0102 in his OP)-- 2019 NFHS rule 8 SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he: a. runs more than three feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged or to hinder a fielder while the runner is advancing or returning to a base; 2. When a play is being made on a runner or batter-runner, he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.
  5. Senor Azul

    Rundown

    You know, it used to be that guys like yawetag and others of our current grumpy veterans thought that they had scored a major gotcha when they pointed out a post was made concerning a different rule set than what was asked about in the OP. In this instance the OP asked about the “NFHS rule set” and that was how I answered with a rules interpretation from the FED rules editor and a FED online case play. But, this time, I am glad that Mr. noumpere brought in all those really old OBR citations because I have a good current one. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.41, p. 58): When determining whether a base runner should be called out under Rule 5.09(b)(1), so long as the umpire determines that a play is being made on the runner and an attempt to tag is occurring (i.e., the fielder is moving to tag the runner), no physical tag attempt is required to call a runner out for leaving the basepath.
  6. To our guest, by rule the batter-runner cannot be credited with a triple because a preceding runner was declared out at the plate— 2021 NCAA rule 10-6b Note: Do not credit the batter with a three-base hit when a preceding runner is put out at the plate, or would have been out but for an error. Do not credit the batter with a two-base hit when a preceding runner trying to advance from first base is put out at third base, or would have been out but for an error. When the R1 was appealed and called out, the out is considered to have occurred at the time of the infraction. If your batter-runner had only legally attained first base and not yet touched second base when R1 missed the plate he would be credited with just a single.
  7. Senor Azul

    Rundown

    From the 2016 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress (section 454, p. 301): Runner Establishes Base Path FED: When a play is being made on a runner, he establishes his base path as a direct line between his position and the base he is trying for. (8-4-2a-2) Official Interpretation: Hopkins: The “skunk in the outfield” is legal. A runner may lead off any way he likes toward the next base and is not guilty of an infraction unless he uses more than three feet on either side of his base path to avoid a tag. (Website 2000 #20; affirmed, website 2005 #16) 2000 NFHS Baseball Rule Interpretations SITUATION 20: With R3 on third base, R1 takes a lead off of first base and positions himself at the grass behind first base down the right field line. F1 throws to F3 in an attempt to pick off R1. R1 runs down the right field foul line toward the outfield fence. RULING: While R1’s position is legal, he is declared out when he ran toward the outfield fence when a play was attempted. In running down the foul line, he was out of the baseline he had between his position at the time of the pick off and second base.(8-4-2a) It would appear that a throw to retire a runner is sufficient to call it a play. Once a runner is in a rundown I would think that would be a play. After all, what is a rundown if it isn’t an attempt to retire a runner? I think a discussion as to what constitutes a play would be in order here.
  8. Senor Azul

    Scoring

    The question is about the game winning hit by Yadier Molina in a game between the Cubs and Cardinals. The game went into extra innings so the tie-breaker was used with a runner being placed at second base to start the half-inning. That runner advanced two bases to score the winning run on Molina’s book rule double. Unfortunately for Molina he did not advance two bases on the hit so he is credited with only a single and not the double he could have been credited with. 2021 OBR rule 9.06(f) Subject to the provisions of Rule 9.06(g), when a batter ends a game with a safe hit that drives in as many runs as are necessary to put his team in the lead, the Official Scorer shall credit such batter with only as many bases on his hit as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run, and then only if the batter runs out his hit for as many bases as are advanced by the runner who scores the winning run. Rule 9.06( f ) Comment: The Official Scorer shall apply this rule even when the batter is theoretically entitled to more bases because of being awarded an “automatic” extra-base hit under various provisions of Rules 5.05 and 5.06(b)(4). The Official Scorer shall credit the batter with a base touched in the natural course of play, even if the winning run has scored moments before on the same play. For example, the score is tied in the bottom of the ninth inning with a runner on second base and the batter hits a ball to the outfield that falls for a base hit. The runner scores after the batter has touched first base and continued on to second base but shortly before the batter-runner reaches second base. If the batter-runner reaches second base, the Official Scorer shall credit the batter with a two-base hit.
  9. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 5.47, pp. 74-75): Play 13: Runner on first, no outs, hit-and-run. Batter hits a line drive which strikes the pitcher in the back, flies into the air and is caught by the third baseman for an out. The runner on first is nearly to second base when the ball is caught. The third baseman throws to first, attempting to double the runner off first base; however, his throw is wild and goes into the stands. At the time of the throw, the runner from first has not quite reached second base. When the ball goes out of play, the runner from first has rounded second base (touching second as he rounded it) and is several steps towards shortstop. j. Doesn’t the act of the third baseman throwing the ball out of play nullify a succeeding appeal attempt? That is, hasn’t the defense erred on its first attempt to appeal? Ruling: No. The wild throw by the third baseman is part of the continuous action created by the batter hitting the ball and does not nullify a subsequent appeal after the continuous action has ended.
  10. This question has been discussed several times before and as recently as this past May. In OBR only a viable runner can assist another runner. The NCAA definitely rules differently. From the 2016 BRD (section 328, p. 217): OBR Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.8, p. 100): …A runner is allowed to assist another runner physically; however, all other members of the offensive team (e.g., base coaches, on-deck batter, a runner who had just scored or has been put out, a batter, etc.) are not allowed to assist…
  11. Funny thing, Mr. beerguy55 et al., is that you would have been right in your scoring interpretation had this been 1950-1954. DETERMINING VALUE OF BASE HITS 1950 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the scorer believes the hit would have been a legitimate home run, despite illegal use of equipment, he shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. 1953 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the umpire awards the batter a home run, despite illegal use of equipment, the scorer shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. Charge the fielder guilty of the rules violation with an error whenever a runner or runners are advanced two bases under playing rule 7.05 (d). 1954 OBR rule 10.05(b) If a batter is awarded three bases on a batted or bunted ball because a fielder has touched the ball with his glove, cap or any other part of his uniform while such article is detached from its proper place on his person, the scorer’s judgment shall dictate whether the batter shall be given credit for a one-base hit, a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run. If the scorer believes the fielder could have, by ordinary effort, kept the hit from being good for more than one, two, or three bases he shall score it as a one-base hit or as a two-base hit or as a three-base hit and charge the fielder with an error. If, however, the umpire awards the batter a home run, despite illegal use of equipment, the scorer shall so score it if the batter touches all bases in the proper order. Charge the fielder guilty of the rules violation with an error whenever a runner or runners are advanced two bases under playing rule 7.05 (d and e). By 1957 the rule had become 10.07(e): When the batter-runner is awarded two bases, three bases or a home run under the provisions of Playing Rule 7.05, he shall be credited with a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run, as the case may be. The 1957 rule has remained pretty much the same ever since. The odd thing about the evolution of this rule is that it has gone the exact opposite of what one would expect if your interpretation of scoring were correct. As for Mr. Wirkmaa’s interpretation of current rule 9.06(e), his book came out in 2003 and it was reviewed by SABR Bookshelf and Baseball Digest magazine among others. Nobody claimed to have found a glaring error in his interpretation of that rule or any other--until now when it has not passed muster under the heavy scrutiny of U-E’s resident experts.
  12. Senor Azul

    Runs Scoring

    From Carl Childress’ 2016 Baseball Rule Differences (section 260, p. 170): Force Play: Not Removed for Appeal of Baserunning Error FED: A force in effect at the time of the pitch remains in effect for the entire play only if a baserunning error occurs BEFORE a following runner is put out. NCAA: If a runner is put out during live action, his out does not remove the force on any preceding runner who might later be called out for a baserunning infraction. (8-5j Ex) OBR: Point not covered. Official Interpretation: Wendelstedt: If an out on a following runner occurs before a runner reaches his forced base, the force is removed. Any appeal upheld for missing that base would not be a force out. Same as FED 8-2 Penalty. Play 125-260: Bases loaded, 1 out. B1 slaps an apparent extra-base hit, but he is thrown out trying for second (2 outs). On appeal, R2 is called out for missing third (3 outs). Ruling: R3’s run does not count—but for different reasons at different levels. In NCAA, the run is canceled because the force remained in effect throughout the play. In FED and OBR, the force in effect at the time of the pitch remained throughout the play because the running error occurred BEFORE the out at second.
  13. Old Man Kenny, there probably are other considerations. From the current NFHS rule book rule 4-2-4 tells us that state associations may adopt game-ending procedures… NFHS rule 4-2 ART. 4 . . . A state association may adopt game-ending procedures that determine how games are ended, including suspended games. However, if a state does not adopt game ending procedures, by mutual agreement of the opposing coaches and the umpire-in-chief, any remaining play may be shortened or the game terminated. If a state association has adopted game-ending procedures, only those game-ending procedures may be used, should the opposing coaches wish to terminate a game. For the state of New York that association is the New York State Public High School Athletic Association (NYSPHSAA). In its current handbook it has the following-- 9. Tied and Suspended Game Rule: To be used for NYSPHSAA Championship Tournament. May also be used during regular season play with Section approval: 2. If a game is stopped before it becomes an official game, the game is a suspended game. This game will be picked up at that point. Score, inning, count of batter etc. should all be recorded in the scorebook.
  14. Mr. ArchAngel72, the point of this whole thread is that FED rules differently on this question. In high school baseball, if a pitcher chooses to use the Set Position with no runners on board, he must still come to a complete stop. If he does not, it is considered an illegal pitch and the penalty is a ball added to the count. Here’s the official interpretation for this issue from the 2016 BRD (section 426, p. 284): Official Interpretation: Rumble: The “discernible, clearly recognizable stop’ is required with or without runners. Both NCAA and OBR actually spell out in their respective rule books that a complete stop is not required for a pitcher using the Set Position with no runners on.
  15. Yes, Jake, it is a catch. Here’s the rule and a case play to clarify the rule. 2020 NFHS Softball Rule 2 SECTION 9 CATCH ART. 4 . . . For a legal catch, a fielder must catch and have secure possession of the ball before stepping, touching or falling into a dead-ball area. A fielder who falls over or through the fence after making a catch shall be credited with the catch. A fielder who catches a ball while contacting or stepping on a collapsible fence, which is not completely horizontal, is credited with a catch. 2019 NFHS Softball Case Book Play 5.1.1 Situation K: While attempting to make a catch, F3 (a) leaves live-ball territory with one foot and then steps back into live-ball territory to make the catch, or (b) dives from live-ball territory and, before coming to rest landing completely in dead-ball territory, makes the catch. RULING: In (a) and (b), the catch is permitted. In (b), the ball becomes dead as soon as either one of F3’s feet touches completely in dead-ball territory, or any other part of her body touches dead-ball territory. Runners are awarded one base. (5-1-1i NOTE, 8-4-3h)
  16. You know, Mr. agdz59, I was going to pay you a compliment for getting the FED rule correct. But then you had to spoil the mood with some nonsense. It was Mr. maven who made the following statement— “Failing to come set is a balk in all codes with balks.” The OP to this thread was indeed asking about the FED ruling for a pitcher using the Set Position when there were no runners. So either Mr. maven did not recognize that fact or he truly believes that pitchers have to come to a complete stop even with no runners on at all levels of play—which is demonstrably wrong. Either way it was Mr. maven who introduced other rule sets to the discussion. Mr. Rich Ives and I both instantly knew that what was posted was wrong and we in good conscience could not let it go unchallenged. And then you act as if his nearly completely wrong statement is gospel and ask him to expound further. Then you insult me by insinuating that I can’t read and comprehend well enough to understand that the OP Kyle Flanagan was asking about a FED ruling.
  17. OBR rule 5.07(a)(2) Comment tells us specifically that a pitcher does not have to come to a complete stop with the bases empty when using the Set Position. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.34, p. 121): With no runners on base, the pitcher is not required to come to a complete stop when using the Set Position; however, the pitcher is required to hold the ball in both hands in front of his body before initiating his delivery to pitch. In other words, the pitcher must bring his hands together before initiating his delivery, but he does not have to come to a complete stop… 2021 NCAA rule 9-1b Note 2: Note 2: With the bases unoccupied, the pitcher does not need to come to a complete and discernible stop.
  18. Mr. Rich Ives, I have grown weary of you forcing me to defend something that shouldn’t need any defending. OBR rule 5.06(b)(4) has 9 subparagraphs labeled A-I. Yes, the first five parts, consisting of A through E, deal with detached equipment. Apparently you stopped reading after subparagraph E, though, because F through I exist and deal with other types of base awards. You would be better served if you stopped desperately trying to catch me in a mistake. I have shown you to be wrong dozens of times and yet you somehow still think you know more than any expert I cite. You can score the play in question any way you like. As for me, I’ll stick with real experts.
  19. Good question, Zach! I have never dealt with this situation before so I am going to rely on Andres Wirkmaa and his book Baseball Scorekeeping. He says the applicable scorekeeping rule would be OBR rule 9.06(e). Here it is-- 2021 OBR rule 9.06(e) When a batter-runner is awarded two bases, three bases or a home run under the provisions of Rules 5.06(b)(4) or 6.01(h), the Official Scorer shall credit the batter-runner with a two-base hit, a three-base hit or a home run, as the case may be. Here is how Mr. Wirkmaa explains this rule…a batter awarded extra bases on what might be considered a technicality is no different in the overall scheme of things from a batter achieving extra bases in a more orthodox manner. If we follow this scorekeeping rule then it would remove any guesswork from the scorer’s job. So as I understand Mr. Wirkmaa’s reasoning, the batter in the OP would be credited with a triple.
  20. Bob, you are probably looking for something that is free but if you are willing to invest $20 I recommend you buy the 2021 (or get an earlier edition) Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual. The last section of the book covers how minor league umpires are evaluated. The following are the evaluation categories-- ATTITUDE & EFFORT · Professionalism on and off the field · Focus · Hustle · Fraternization · Coachability · Relationship with others · Administrative duties FIELD PRESENCE · Confident/In-charge demeanor · Appearance in uniform · Mobility TECHNICAL SKILLS · Judgment · Communication with partner(s) · Reaction/positioning for plays · Knowledge of system · Use of voice · Style and form of calls RULES KNOWLEDGE · On-field rules application · Written tests SITUATION MANAGEMENT · Communication skills · Composure · Take-charge approach It then describes what each of these bullet point items is and how to evaluate an umpire’s performance using them.
  21. Senor Azul

    Balk or no!

    Mr. LRZ, actually there is a FED case play. I don’t think this applies to OBR or to NCAA. I cannot find anything for those codes that talks about the where, when, or how the pivot foot should land--only about the stride foot. 2020 NFHS Case Book Play 6.1.3 Situation J: R2 is on second. From the set position, F1 uses a jump turn. He comes down astride his plate with nonpivot foot toward second base and throws or feints there. RULING: Legal. COMMENT: F1’s pivot foot shall contact the ground before he releases the ball.
  22. Mr. agdz59, given your absolute refusal to accept anything contrary to your understanding of the rules (in a thread about the hidden ball trick), I am a bit hesitant to correct you here and now. But here goes. You stated, “throwing to a fielder too far away to make a play” would be a balk. No, it wouldn't be! From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.25, p. 117): There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pickoff at second base and seeing no fielder covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner. From the 2013 Wendelstedt manual (p. 104): Once a pitcher steps towards second base, he has fulfilled all of his requirements as a pitcher. He may then throw the ball to anywhere on the field without taking another step, except to another base. If he throws to another base, he must move his non-pivot foot a distance and direction from the position it landed in his initial step (though not necessarily directly to the base he throws to because he is now an infielder).
  23. Mr. Kevin_K, it was only two months ago that I gave a full citation for that nugget of baseball brilliance. Here it is again just for your edification--from the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide (p. 140) written by George Demetriou: Once the pitcher has assumed either position, he may switch to the other only by first properly disengaging the rubber (stepping off). To be legal, the first movement must be the pivot foot in a rearward direction (9-1a5). I would say that if you still object to its language you should take it up immediately with Mr. Demetriou.
  24. A legal disengagement is when the pitcher clearly steps back off the rubber. For this to be legal the pivot foot must be placed on the ground behind the rubber before the free foot is moved or the hands are separated. And the first movement must be the pivot foot in a rearward direction (not upward as in the jump step). Your pitcher’s action does not meet these requirements. A jump turn pickoff is considered to be in contact with the rubber. So when he did his jump step and did not throw to first he balked.
  25. The 2013 Wendelstedt manual says this about one runner passing another (p. 161): Passing by a runner occurs when a following runner completely passes (with his core body) a preceding runner while running along the baselines. It does not matter which runner actually does the passing, only that they physically passed one another.
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