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Senor Azul

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Everything posted by Senor Azul

  1. For your reading pleasure, Mr. Catch18. All of the following can be found in the 2016 BRD (section 3, p. 15) (this is the very first entry in the 2016 edition)… Here’s the official interpretation for FED: Hopkins: If the defense gains a third out during play but the batter-runner has not yet reached first at the time of the out, the defense may play on him at first for an advantageous fourth out. Play 2-3: R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 singles to the outfield but injures himself coming out of the box. He cannot continue. R3 scores easily, but R2 is thrown out at home: 3 outs. The catcher then fires to F3, who tags first in advance of BR. Ruling: In FED/NCAA, cancel R3’s run. In OBR, the run scores, as per OBR official interpretation 4-3… OBR Official Interpretation 4-3: Wendelstedt: Play 2-3 does not qualify to become an apparent (advantageous) fourth out. It is made on a runner who has not yet reached a base, not on one who has missed a base or has not properly tagged up from one. In addition, the 2019-2020 College Baseball Rules Study Guide by George Demetriou states the following… “Also, if the defense gains a third out during play and the batter-runner has not reached first at the time of the out, a fourth out appeal can negate all runs scored on the play.” Play 4-89 With runners on second and third and two out, B1 singles to right, but pulls his groin and cannot advance. R3 scores, but R2 is thrown out at the plate for the third out. Ruling: A fourth out appeal on B1 will cancel the run.
  2. Chris, you have received three very good answers to your question and now I would like to tell you how the scorekeepers count this in the book. The batter-runner in your scenario is considered to be left on base (LOB) by rule… 2021 OBR rule 9.02 The official score report prepared by the Official Scorer shall be in a form prescribed by the league and shall include… (g) Number of runners left on base by each team. This total shall include all runners who get on base by any means and who do not score and are not put out. The Official Scorer shall include in this total a batter-runner whose batted ball results in another runner being retired for the third out.
  3. Senor Azul

    Home Run

    Ordinarily on an out-of-the-park home run the runner(s) would be allowed to score even if the batter stopped at first. So the batter would receive credit for an RBI single. But circumstances can change the scoring of the play. For example, in the 1999 National League Championship Series (NLCS), Robin Ventura hit an out-of-the-park walkoff grand slam home run but received credit for only a single and one RBI. He was mobbed between first and second base and never proceeded any further with only the runner from third base actually crossing the plate before the celebration prevented the others to run the bases. According to Baseball-Reference.com, there have been at least two other instances of "grand slam singles." Both occurred when a batter hit a grand slam but subsequently passed the runner ahead of him on the base paths, which according to the rules of Major League Baseball causes the runner who passes his teammate to be called out. This happened on July 9, 1970, when Dalton Jones of the Detroit Tigers passed teammate Don Wert in a game against the Boston Red Sox, leaving him with a 3-RBI single. It also occurred on July 4, 1976, when Tim He-who-shall-not-be-named of the Philadelphia Phillies passed teammate Garry Maddox during a 10–5 win in the first game of a doubleheader against the Pittsburgh Pirates, leaving him with a 3-RBI single. In both cases, the other three runs still counted because only the player who passes his teammate is called out. The three baserunners are able to score. Both of these hits took place with fewer than two outs.
  4. From the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual and then the actual rule (p. 146): A slip (as opposed to a pitch or throw) is a released baseball, intended to be a pitch or throw, but that lacks both aim and momentum. Any intended pitch that slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses (or, if it is touched, would have crossed) a foul line is a ball. An intended pitch that slips and does not cross a foul line is a balk if there is a runner, and no pitch if there is not a runner. (6.02b Comment) An intended pickoff throw (in-contact) to first or third base that slips is a balk if it does not reach the foul line or a fielder within reach of a tag attempt at the base. However, it is not a balk if a pitcher drops the ball or allows it to slip after a step to second base, which does not require a throw. 2021 OBR Rule 6.02(b) Comment: A ball which slips out of a pitcher’s hand and crosses the foul line shall be called a ball; otherwise it will be called no pitch. This would be a balk with men on base.
  5. Just for giggles here’s the Federation softball rule that has very similar language in its rule 8-6-4 about a following runner passing a preceding obstructed runner and their case play illustrating how that rule is applied in a game situation (and how I think it should be and probably is handled in baseball)-- ART. 4 . . . The runner physically passes a preceding runner before that runner has been put out. If this was the third out of the inning, any runs scoring prior to the out for passing a preceding runner would count. A runner(s) passing a preceding obstructed runner is not out. (8-4-3b PENALTY c) 2019 NFHS Softball Casebook 8.6.4 SITUATION E: With R2 on second and R1 on first, B3 hits a ball safely to the outfield fence. After R2 takes off from second, she is obstructed by F6 and knocked down and may be injured. The umpire signals obstruction on F6. Both R1 and B3 pass R2 (who is still on the ground) and subsequently score. F8 finally throws the ball to F6 who tags R2 between second and third base. RULING: There is no infraction assessed for passing an obstructed runner. Both R1 and B3 score on the play. R2 is also awarded home and scores, as this is the base she would have achieved had there been no obstruction.
  6. Mr. Jimurray, you may have noticed that the current NCAA baseball obstruction rule was nearly completely rewritten. The reason listed is clarification. Since the college study guide I was quoting from is the 2019-2020 edition I had to check the old NCAA rule books before telling you what your friend George wrote about Type 2 obstruction. As far as I can tell the NCAA did not actually change anything in the rule—they just rewrote it for clarification sake. So here are some quotes from the 2019-2020 College Baseball Study Guide. “If a play is subsequently made on the obstructed runner (after umpire allows play to continue) and such play results in the runner being tagged out before reaching the base he would have been awarded, the umpire shall not call time until all other playing action has ceased. He will then make the obstruction award.” “However, the ultimate decision in awarding bases shall not be made until all play has ceased…” “Following runners are allowed to retain whatever base they attain before playing action ceases. If a following runner is thrown out in action subsequent to the play on the obstructed runner, the out stands.”
  7. Mr. Jimurray, of course the Note you refer to is in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual. You know as well as I do that the MiLBUM and the MLBUM use essentially the same text for most of its entries. I checked the 2007 and the 2015 MLBUM and the text has remained nearly identical for at least the past 14 years. It now comes down to how you interpret Note 1. The very first sentence of Note 1 refers to a runner (“if a runner is obstructed”). I think it is obvious that it is talking about when a single runner is obstructed and then later thrown out. Of course time will be called then because nothing else can possibly happen. If one continues to read Note 2 he will see the following sentence—“However, the ultimate decision in placing the runners shall not be made until all play has ceased and shall be based on the principle that the obstructed runner will be entitled to the base he would have reached had no obstruction occurred.” That makes three separate references in that section on Type 2 obstruction where we are told that the umpire is to allow play to continue until all runners have stopped. In addition to the already posted OBR and FED rulings, I can provide the NCAA ruling as well. In his 2020 College Baseball Study Guide, author George Demetriou states on page 113 that “the umpire shall allow play to continue until all action has ceased and then call time…”
  8. Now, Mr. agdz59, I can get to your tangential question. The answer can be found in FED rule 8-4-2g and its following subsection 1. As you describe it the fielder muffed the ball about 10 feet from third base and did not gain control until he was essentially even with the bag. So he had to move and now it is the runner who should get the protection from the fielder. I think the rule of thumb is a step and reach for the fielder to maintain the protection of being in the act of fielding. Here’s what Carl Childress says in his 2016 BRD (section 345, p. 227) and then the relevant rule: “When a fielder muffs a batted ball and he must move to re-field it, if contact occurs in the base path, the umpire will protect the runner unless the official declares deliberate interference.” 2019 NFHS rule 8-4 ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he: g. intentionally interferes with a throw or a thrown ball; or he hinders a fielder on his initial attempt to field a batted ball. A fielder is not protected, except from intentional contact if he misplays the ball and has to move from his original location;
  9. Mr. HokieUmp, I am not sure why you and Mr. Jimurray are arguing about an OBR ruling in the High School forum in a thread that clearly states its question concerns FED rules. However, let me clarify the answer to your question. It is not that the obstructed runner is out or safe on the call that determines when the umpire calls time. The umpire is to call time at the end of all possible play, i.e., when all runners have stopped. Here’s what the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual says (pp. 110-111) about calling time after a type 2 obstruction— …The ball is not dead, however, and the umpire shall allow play to continue until all play has ceased and no further action is possible. At that moment, he shall call “Time” and impose such penalties, if any, that in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. And…"This decision is made on the principle that the umpire, in making awards on this type of obstruction, shall allow play to continue until no further action is possible and then shall make awards"…
  10. Good golly, Mr. SH0102, you and Mr. maven sure have created a dilemma for me. Who should I believe?--you two or Carl Childress who said in his 2016 BRD (section 370, p. 246) that under FED rules, “The ball becomes dead (on obstruction) only after runners have gone as far as possible which allows the defense to record outs or commit overthrows.” That’s how he interprets the case play 8.3.2D that I posted earlier that actually tells us that the ball remains live as long as there are runners moving. After a second of deliberation I think I will go with the case play and Mr. Childress. And a question for you, Mr. maven. Some time in the recent past we had a thread that asked if runners could score out of order—I can’t find it at the moment. As I recall we established that the FED rule about runners passing, rule 8-4-2m, states the following runner is out when he passes an unobstructed preceding runner. So why couldn’t the B/R in the OP pass the obstructed R1 and score?
  11. Under Federation rules, obstruction is always a delayed dead ball. That means the ball becomes dead only after all runners have gone as far as possible so that the defense can record outs or commit errors. See case book plays 8.3.2A and D. · From the FED definition (rule 2-22-1): When obstruction occurs, the ball becomes dead at the end of playing action… · Obstruction appears in the delayed dead ball table in rule 5 as item number 4 with no conditions or qualifiers… · FED rule 5-1-2b—it is a delayed dead ball when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a batter or runner… · FED rule 5-1-3—The ball becomes dead when time is taken to make an award when a catcher or any fielder obstructs a runner… 2019 FED 8.3.2 SITUATION D: With one out, R2 and R1. B4 hits ground ball directly to F1 who throws to F5 for the force on R2 at third. F5 then throws to F3 in time to put out B4. F6 holds R2, preventing him from advancing to third. RULING: The umpire will call obstruction when it occurs, and then call time after runners have advanced as far as possible, which in this situation would probably be second for R1. R2 will then be awarded third. Because of the obstruction of F6, the out at first stands. B4’s out stands. B4 was not affected by the obstruction. B5 will come to bat with two outs and R2 is on third and R1 is on second base.
  12. According to the 2016 BRD, in its section on malicious contact (section 348, p. 232) the MLB issued the following interpretation in February 2014— Official Interpretation: Torre: The umpire has the right to eject (a player) from the game if it’s (the contact) blatant, and he’d be automatically out.”
  13. Well done, Mr. LRZ! In addition to the actual rule, the interpretations manuals state the same thing. The following is taken from the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.27, p. 118): Official Baseball Rule 6.02(a)(4) provides that the pitcher be charged with a balk if, while in contact with the rubber, he throws to an unoccupied base except for the purpose of making a play. Play 1: Runners on first and second, pitcher in set position. Runner breaks for third base and pitcher throws to third base. Ruling 1: Legal play. Play 2: Runners on first and second, pitcher in set position. Runner bluffs going to third base and pitcher throws to third base. However, runner did not go. Ruling 2: Balk under OBR 6.02(a)(4). The key to understanding the above two plays is for the umpire to use good judgment in deciding whether or not the runner on the previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base… Since the OP Mr. hookminor did not specify a rule code here’s something from the high school case plays— 2013 NFHS Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 20: With runners at first base and second base, the runner at second bluffs a steal of third by running hard to third before he stops and retreats back to second base. The pitcher, seeing the runner take off hard to third base, legally throws to the unoccupied third base. The third-base coach wants a balk called on the pitcher since the runner from second stopped. RULING: A pitcher may throw or feint a throw to an unoccupied base in an attempt to put out or drive back a runner. As long as the umpire judges that it is reasonable for the pitcher to believe he had a play at third, even though the runner stopped, it is a legal move. (6-2-4b)
  14. Score the batter’s at-bat as an FC4-3 and credit him with an RBI per rule 9.04(a)(1) and the definition of the term fielder's choice (taken from the 2021 OBR)-- 9.04 Runs Batted In A run batted in is a statistic credited to a batter whose action at bat causes one or more runs to score, as set forth in this Rule 9.04. (a) The Official Scorer shall credit the batter with a run batted in for every run that scores (1) unaided by an error and as part of a play begun by the batter’s safe hit (including the batter’s home run), sacrifice bunt, sacrifice fly, infield out or fielder’s choice, unless Rule 9.04(b) applies; FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles his safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and (c) to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference (undefended steal).
  15. I have posted the following a few times—most recently this past May. From the 2016 Baseball Rule Differences by Carl Childress (section 350, p. 234): Official Interpretation: Hopkins: On a force play a runner hit by a throw between bases is NOT guilty of interference if he did not slide when he is in the baseline and “not even halfway to second: The runner cannot be expected to slide at that point in the base path.” (Hopkins, website 2007 #3) Note from the BRD: This official interpretation seems to indicate that a runner who is more than halfway had better hit the dirt. 2007 NFHS Baseball Interpretations SITUATION 3: With no outs and R1 on first base, B2 hits a hard ground ball to F6. F6 fields the ball and steps on second base and then throws to first base in an attempt to double up B2. R1 is running standing up in a straight line to second and is hit by F6's throw. R1 was not even half way to second base and did not intentionally interfere with the throw. The defensive coach states that B2 should also be out since R1 violated the force-play slide rule. RULING: This is not a violation of the force play slide rule. R1 cannot be expected to slide at that point in the base path. The play stands. R1 would be out only if he intentionally interfered. (8-4-2b penalty)
  16. From the 2016 BRD (section 350, p. 236): Note 337: The force play/slide rule went into effect in 1998. FED listed their rationale: “The rule is intended to ensure the safety of the fielder.” (1998 Case Book Comments on the Rules, 2-32-2f, p. 3)
  17. Oh, Mr. Thunderheads, don’t let anybody tell you that the diagram you posted doesn’t have any application to first base—it definitely does! In fact, that diagram is used in the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual and the example they use in showing how to use it is… A runner breaks from first base and then completely overruns first base with both feet going into foul territory beyond the base in returning. If the runner wants to again attempt to advance second base, they must retouch first base prior to advancing. In addition, I am almost certain there was a play discussed recently about whether a returning runner who had crossed the foul line (the back side of first base) had been passed by the B/R who had overrun first and gone up the foul line.
  18. Guys, we did discuss this question a long time ago in a thread titled Failure to touch 1B in August 2014 (Rules forum currently on page 26). The original poster eventually asked a friend of his at PBUC and here is what he said— "Good news...the OBR doesn't clearly define, so hard to say you are completely wrong. However, I think a more practical ruling would be if the runner touches the ground beside or beyond the base, he would be considered as to have touched or passed the bag." I think the takeaway from this is that foot placement is the key to the call. If the B/R’s foot is on the ground next to or beyond the bag prior to the F3 catching the throw, the B/R has “acquired” the base. The front edge of first base is 90 feet from the tip of home plate. If the B/R’s foot touches down and breaks the plane of that front edge before the ball arrives he has acquired the base. And here is the closest case play I could find back then—now it can be found in the 2017 Jaksa/Roder manual on page 83-- Batter hits a ground ball to the shortstop. On what appears to be the batter-runner's last stride before touching first base, his foot hits the ground just short of the base, failing to touch it. However, the batter-runner's body is over the top of first before the first baseman gloves the throw. The batter-runner overruns the base, the umpire makes no signal and the first baseman steps on the base and appeals to the umpire that the batter-runner failed to touch first: the umpire has handled the play in the correct manner. The batter-runner never reached first safely and it is the responsibility of the defensive team to recognize that he missed the base. The batter-runner is out on the appeal.
  19. Senor Azul

    Runs scoring

    Mr. Jimurray, could you provide the actual Wendelstedt interpretation you mentioned please. The 2013 Wendelstedt manual states that if multiple appeals make for exactly three outs, the defense is restricted by the order in which they appeal. So, in the OP when the first appeal was made on the batter-runner at first base that resulted in the second out and thus removed the force at second. Wouldn’t that mean the appeal on the miss of second base for the third out was a time play just as Mr. flyingron posted? Also, the 2016 BRD in its section 13 on pages 26-27 tells us the order of appeal can make a difference. Perhaps your citation could also mention the year it was made please. Maybe it came later and thus supersedes the previous rulings. And I am not sure why you brought up the NCAA ruling on this since this question specified OBR. But since you did, their rule 8-6b-9 tells us that multiple appeals must be in the correct order unless it is an advantageous fourth out.
  20. According to the 2020 Little League Rules Instruction Manual it is a balk/illegal pitch when a pitcher pauses in his delivery. I understand that to mean that even in a windup the pitcher is not allowed to pause a la the “Japanese way.” Since LL rules are based on OBR it is also a balk/illegal pitch when a pitcher pauses in the Set position, i.e., he suspends his lift leg. 2020 LL rule 8.05 –With a runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch–Major/Minor League [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League] when- (a) the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery; INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS: ➔ If the pitcher starts his/her delivery, in any way, and stops, the pitcher has violated the rule. Call a balk or illegal pitch. From the 2013 Wendelstedt rules interpretation manual (section 6.3, p. 102): It is a balk when… The pitcher suspends his foot in the air (he stopped his delivery) in an attempt to hold a runner. Play 132: R1, no outs, no count. The left-handed pitcher, after coming stopped in the set position, raises his non-pivot foot off the ground and suspends it in the air, freezing R1. He then steps and throws to first base in an attempt to pick-off R1. Ruling: This is a balk.
  21. From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.7, pp. 98-99) discussing OBR 6.01(j): Even in the absence of a bona fide slide, the umpire still must find that the conduct of the runner “interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play…” When a runner who does not engage in a bona fide slide makes contact with the fielder for the purpose of breaking up a double play, such contact will be deemed to have “hindered and impeded” the fielder for purposes of interpreting Rule 6.01(j). However, there may be instances where the runner does not make contact—or makes only incidental or minimal contact—with the fielder. In such cases, the umpire will use his judgment to determine whether the runner “hindered and impeded” the fielder and thereby violated the Rule.
  22. Well done, BCBrad. This rule interpretation is not just in the Wendelstedt manual—it is also found in the 2016 BRD (section 444, p. 295) and in the actual rule— The umpire shall call attention to obvious errors in the lineup: (1) The lineup does not include all nine players; (2) the pitcher is omitted when there is no DH listed; (3) two players with the same last name but no identifying initial. 2021 OBR Rule 4.03 Comment: Obvious errors in the batting order, which are noticed by the umpire-in-chief before he calls “Play” for the start of the game, should be called to the attention of the manager or captain of the team in error, so the correction can be made before the game starts. For example, if a manager has inadvertently listed only eight men in the batting order, or has listed two players with the same last name but without an identifying initial and the errors are noticed by the umpire before he calls “play,” he shall cause such error or errors to be corrected before he calls “play” to start the game. Teams should not be “trapped” later by some mistake that obviously was inadvertent and which can be corrected before the game starts…
  23. Here is the only help provided by the LL RIM-- 2020 LL RIM rule 7.08(a)(4) INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS: ➔ Stumbling, tripping or crawling do not constitute a “Head First slide.” ➔ This rule does not apply when a runner is returning to a base, only when advancing to a base. Any runner who does a headfirst slide is out at the moment the umpire sees the runner go into the headfirst slide. The ball remains live and in play. Other runners may advance at their own risk and plays may be attempted on any other runners. If the runner who is called out for sliding headfirst has been forced to advance this will be a force out and no runs will score if this is the third out of the inning. In all other instances the headfirst slide will be a time play when there are two outs.
  24. From the 2019 LL Make the Right Call (the casebook of LL Baseball): RULE 7.08(a)(4)[MAJORS & BELOW] SITUATION: A runner on third base breaks for home on a batted ball. The ball is thrown to the catcher and a play is imminent at the plate. In an attempt to avoid the tag, the runner slides head first into the plate. RULING: The umpire shall declare the runner out for the head-first slide, the ball remains live and the defense may record additional outs.
  25. Mr. MadMax, If you read the whole thread you will find that Guest LittleOtt makes some sense. He was just trying to help out Mr. maven. You see, earlier in this thread Mr. Jimurray wondered about which OBR rule would support an MLB umpire in prohibiting a batter from leaving the box to get a new bat. Then Mr. maven, rules interpreter, guessed it would be the batter’s box rule but did not provide an actual rule cite. It was then that Guest LittleOtt was helpful in providing the actual rules with their numbers that Mr. maven had guessed about. This is all fine and dandy except for the fact that GuestLittleOtt used a 2010 edition of the Jaksa/Roder manual so the rule numbers used in that edition are, of course, the old numbers and those rules have been rewritten some as well. The current rule numbers are--5.04(b)(1) and (2) and its following Comment and 5.04(b)(4).
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