HokieUmp

11 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

Bottom 3, his catcher does the SAME thing setting outside, and tries to frame an even further outside pitch, I call it a ball.  Coach yells, "Thats bullSH*# blue, what are you doing? " 

<DING> Ticket punched.

I call time, and go to the bench and say, "Thats enough coach, we don't argue balls and strikes.  I don't want to hear another word, or you're done."  Coach says, "But those are strikes, you don't have to take it out on the kids? Call the game fair"

<DING> Had it not been punched already, ticket punched.

The general guidelines are "Personal, Prolonged, and Profane."  Profane for the first DING, obviously, given it's 10U and shouted from the dugout.  Personal for the second, since he just accused you of cheating and/or bias.

I don't know what to tell you about the time issue.  I'd either have set him a time during the first convo - not ask "can you start getting ready?" since that gives him an out, which he immediately took.  Say "start warm-ups now, to be ready for a 2:15 plate meeting, and start after."  Or better yet - go to the SD, and tell him/her "look, WAY ahead of time, so go please tell the teams to be ready for an earlier start."  I guarantee, had the SD been the one to bring it up, minimal griping and moaning.

5 hours ago, Randy said:

I have a serious question.  Earlier today I wanted to speak to my pitcher on the mound so I said, "Time please, Umpy/Umpie".  Well... he lost it on me... threatened to kick me out if I ever used that term again.  Said it was derogatory to all umpires. He said, "Mr. Umpire" is the only term to be used.  I have to be honest, I've been saying Umpie for 30 years as a coach and probably another 10 as a player and I've never heard of it being an offensive term.  Any thoughts on this?

I've read a few forum posts saying that "Blue" isn't always appreciated.

I appreciate your input.

Out of curiosity, where was this at, geographically?  I haven't heard "Umpie" get used since I lived in Australia.

FWIW, I wouldn't have minded, and I'm more than a little astounded the dude lost it.  And "Mr Umpire is the only term to be used" is just about the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

So, we've already seen the resolution of the OP's deal.  I've been a little busy with some tournament stuff lately, so I didn't get a chance to address this at the time.

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You're getting hung up on the technicality that he didn't say "I'm playing this game under protest" at the exact time he should have (and don't get me wrong, there are rules for a reason and we have to draw lines somewhere).   As I've said before, it's defensible to deny the protest.   But don't ever ignore someone who is wrong on a technicality.   Kind of curious if the rules define what exact words and language you have to say to file a protest.  Or is it like an "obvious appeal"?

No, I'm really not hung up on the technicality of it.  I'm hung up on the fact that he didn't protest at the time at which it's relevant.  That's not a technicality.  The wording of his protest doesn't mean jack to me.  It's exactly like "obvious appeal" to me, in that if he says some version of protest, I'll mark the book with the situation, and it's under protest.

And the subsequent storyline showed the dude knew what protesting WAS, because he came out and said that's what he wanted to do.  It was flat out late.  We don't go back three pitches later and say "oh yeah, that guy missed the plate;  he's out, and take the run off the board."  So we don't go back and say the same about a protest.

I'm not dismissing his case because he's an ass;  that's just a happy side benefit of the process - big fan of karma.  And despite the glibness of that, I'm really not on #TeamDenyTheProtest because dude's a dick.  A protest situation is a rule thing, and we're supposed to follow rules.

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Remember one simple fact...no matter how douch-y the coach is, no matter how despicable a human being he is, at the end of the day he was right about the rule, the umpires were not.  Dismiss him as a mindless bully at your peril.   He has a case.   He's doing everything the wrong way, but he has a cause to hang his hat on.  The call was wrong...the time limit is an arbitrary technicality.  And some people are like a dog on a bone in these scenarios.   He doesn't have to believe he is right...he IS right.   Being told "yeah, you're right, but you were too late...if you had said something 90 seconds earlier you would have won the protest" is not going to get a positive reaction.   His response is almost certainly going to be..."wait a minute, I did protest right after the play."

.... and with what I wrote above, and the first sentence of THIS paragraph, you're absolutely correct.  The umpires F*#Ked up the rule, and that's bad.  I'd like to think I wouldn't have done that.  But do we compound the F*#K up by F*#King up the protest process?  THAT part of The Tale seems even more terrible than a on-field rule problem - it's the shadowy bullSH*# that seems to make up local youth sports leagues.

And worrying about a positive reaction?  It MIGHT be because it's been basically 100 degrees every day since the first of May here in South Texas, but I *so* don't care about that part.  It's not that he said something 90 seconds too late - it's that he let several more pitches and potential chances for ball-in-play to go by before saying anything about a protest.  (And again, he KNEW enough to say it was a protest, so he knew enough.)  How many plays would be enough, if this is considered okay to allow it at that point?

And look:  since the game was re-done, and the other team won, one could make the case that, ULTIMATELY, justice was served.  But one can CERTAINLY make the case that no one was covered in glory by the process.

3 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

The coach may be a horse's ass, but in the end he was defending his players against a perceived injustice.  As you said, you don't want to win on a technicality.  Losing on a technicality is 1000 times worse.

My dude, I was with you until this part.  (And for the most part, I still am;  it's just this part "clanged" in my head when I read it.)  My alternate wording of that first sentence would be "The coach may be perceived to be a horse's ass, but in the end, he proved everyone's suspicions to be correct."  That behaviour was less of a defense against injustice, than an outright attempt to bully officials/opponents into getting his way.

Of course, it's a matter of perspective, and to-MAY-to/to-MAH-to, and whatnot.  But I'm pretty much on #TeamHe'sADouche all the way.

My suspicion is this coach threatened to sue, or go to the press, or something similar, and someone caved.   In the end, it's the "right" call...with extremely poor execution.  I'm not interested in the technicality of the timing. 

I don't agree;  they upheld a protest that wasn't, and that wasn't done "legally" in any form.  And there's zero transparency on the process.  So, honestly, Guest Casey should ALSO be threatening some legal "whisper campaign" to expose the haphazard way this league does its processes - or just go up the LL chain of command.

ESPECIALLY in such a setting - some level of champion final is going to/should have league officials present.   And especially if this coach has the reputation you say he has.

It's sometimes breathtaking how things get SO spun up once it goes from run-of-the-mill regular season games, to when trophies get handed out.

Commented in-line, just to avoid including the entire post.

31 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Hey there welcome

 

It is a decent place

 

as its said.  "Try not to suck"

Arch, you are ALWAYS so polite.

@834k3rit's *really* a command - "Don't Suck."  It's not fair, but you're expected to be pretty much perfect from the jump.

Welcome to the group!

Possibly unpopular opinion:  I didn't mind how this was executed.

To me, it's a form of preventative umpiring - this way, that batter doesn't get one in his ear during his next AB.  And maybe because the umpire did it early, the opponent doesn't get butt-hurt about it.

(Although, my personal biases are about to show through;  if that was hit this weekend when ECU played the University of Virginia, that batter couldn't gloat hard or long *enough* for my liking.  He could've done a F*#King dance, for all I'd care.)

23 hours ago, ErichKeane said:

A dad in the stands started saying something like, "How could you call that, it was clearly low AND away, learn the strike zone" (etc).  I pulled off my mask and turned around quickly to see who it was, and magically he no longer hand anything to complain about

To side-track from the original issue.....  honestly, this is the point where the "don't talk to the fence" rule is invoked.  On the other hand, if you ARE going to interact with them, that would be the time to mention the official's shortage, and how they could pick up some extra cash, seeing as to how they're experts on the strike zone!

On 5/18/2022 at 9:28 PM, Jimurray said:

That is an obscure requirement somewhere in Texas UIL procedures. I have never seen it become an issue and have probably started 1 or 2 minutes earlier a few times when our show up 5 minute meeting took my 1 minute pregame and the HTC took 30 secs to ground rule and they took the field that day without the lineups or an anthem. I actually have asked coaches on one occasion if we were ok to start early and they said yes when for some reason we somehow ended up at the plate 5 minutes early. But I'm aware of the Texas rule and ask the coaches if they want to start early but it would actually be a Texas UIL violation.

I've worked four complete (well, *I'm* done for '22, even if the state isn't) seasons in Texas, and literally had not heard of that until your post.  If we got done the plate meeting and ground rules early, we just went - not least of which because no one looked at a clock.  I mean, I wear a Fitbit, and I never look to see the time.

Although..... if I were gonna run afoul of the UIL in my time here, I think THIS violation is one I could live with.  Chicks dig the bad boys, anyway.

6 hours ago, Guest Human said:

Heard "go get the tournament director"...  wonder what she/he thought of it, especially caught on video.

Let me say:  I have NOT watched the video, based on the comments I saw, since I don't need/want the aggravation.

But I don't wonder what the TD thought of it .... *at all*.  Here's my rough transcript:  "These teams pay me frankly stupid amounts of money to put on these dog-and-pony shows.  Umpires cost me money.  Parents and coaches yell pretty loud.  F*#K that umpire."

9 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Understood. But I have a hard time visualizing F1 feinting to 3B, then turning to throw to first without breaking contact with the rubber.

Maybe HokieUmp can provide some clarification. I'm not envisioning how as described in the OP this is a balk in LL.

The clarification, based on what I'm reading here, is that I probably F*#Ked up the call.

I'm a LL umpire, just in the sense that I work games that are run by LL orgs.  Therefore, I made the assumption that LL was based off OBR, and thus did NOT allow for that move.  So I got it.  I cannot recall with certainty on the ultimate disengagement, since I had it as a balk once he didn't complete the throw to third.  My bad.

15 hours ago, noumpere said:

Was F6 closer to second or to third?

Easily closer to second.  And F1 stepped directly to second.  This one was a gimme, once I processed what I'd seen.

The first three days of this week were a little weird from the various pitcher's mounds.  Ended up with  four balks total - and it just took three games for that to happen.  Two of them were "normal" - kid making a movement to start, and then not.  The other two were a little stranger, with one I'd never seen before.

1) On Wednesday, working a LL "Senior" game.  It's really a combo Junior and Senior league, based on the ages of players, since they wouldn't have enough players to make a decent-sized league for either of those age brackets alone.  Kid decides to do the "3-1" play - steps to third, doesn't disengage, then turns to throw to first.  It was obvious he was gonna do it, so I just waited him out.  "Balk!  Time!  That's a balk" etc, etc.  Told the coach, sure, that's a legal move in HS, but LL isn't based on HS rules.  Oops.

2) This is weird one.  Private-school play-in game - the winner gets to be part of the TAPPS (the Texas private-school "league") playoffs, and the loser is done.  We'd had an R2, but that kid stole third at some point.  A pitch or two later, the pitcher turns and throws to second base - when he made the move, he threw to the SS, who was away from the base.  THAT part is fine, as we know.  But he'd apparently forgotten the whole dude-stole-the-next-base thing.

THIS one, I didn't get right away.  He made the move, I took a beat, thought "Wait, what?" then stepped out from behind the plate, and went "Time."  Waved my partner over, just to make sure I/we had actually seen what I/we just saw, and was like - "unoccupied base.  that's a balk."  And then scored the runner.  In my defense, in over 1200 games in the US, and others abroad, this was NOT something I'd ever seen before.   Honestly?  Despite seeing in the rulebook over the years, I never *really* expected to see it happen in the wild.

It might be a weird thing to say the first week of May, but it's been a long year.

11 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I've had a rough time with fans this week.  I think I've reached the place where I either need to get more training & feedback or quit.  Having a new partner every night is terrible for development and I'm tired of having doubts in my head. This stuff (comments from fans & coaches) eats at me. It bugs me if I think I'm doing fine, but then start hearing whining or griping.   I'm about to start going back at people as my cup is getting really full.  I so badly want to do a good job and honestly believe I am a good umpire, but then I wonder if the loud coaches and fans are wrong or maybe I'm not as good as I thought I was.

Okay....

1) "I wonder if the loud coaches and fans are wrong or "

Answer:  They're wrong.  More accurately:  they're ugly and stupid AND they're wrong.  And they might smell bad, too.

2) Regarding the rough times...  at the risk of blatantly advertising my own writing, here's an excerpt from something I wrote on "Talk Me Off The Ledge" a few days ago:

"Also, around that time, I just said to myself "f--k these f--king guys, and all their f--king bulls--t" - and the healing began."

At a certain point, I firmly believe that's what you have to do.  If you're not as inclined to be as happily profane as I am, you can find your own phrase, but I like the mouth-feel of it myself.

Look, it's always been an Us Versus Them in the game.  So embrace it, and make them A Them.

4 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

In some ways it would be worse if he did.

So, as  an umpire, is there any amount you could be paid to return to this field?

 

Mathematically?  Probably.  But it would have more zeroes than a local league could afford.

I usually go back to the edge of the grass, and closer to 2B.  That way, I don't run the risk of being in the way of a fielder trying to make a play.

1 hour ago, stevis said:

I don't begrudge your (or anyone's) choice not to volunteer your services one bit.  I'm doing so as my part of being involved in my community, and to scratch my itch to do something unselfish (while selfishly choosing an activity that I enjoy anyway.) 

I get that.  I do other things, in other places, to check that box.  MY logic ('logic' possibly being used loosely here) is that I'd prefer not to do something for a community while also being considered the enemy, or at least The Bad Guy.  I can't speak to other places, but I work games in three different 'house leagues' right now - all of which are LL affiliates - and all of them pay their umpires.

I'd like to address a few things in the actual play here....  My responses will be in colour.  The encouragement part comes at the end.

On 4/23/2022 at 8:27 PM, SCRookie said:

First off, working inside was weird. I found myself situationally unaware a couple times…luckily those times didn’t lead to problems. However I had two situations at 3rd where the 3rd base coach was livid. Both were tags on the slide, and I called both out. That is simply how I saw it. The second one had the kid returning safely on a pick-off attempt, and then he gets up and immediately leads off * while the 3rd baseman still has the ball.* I had him out on the tag milliseconds before he got back on the bag. Coach was super pissed and commented “that’s the second one you missed.”

So now I’m a little miffed. But I let it go.

*In MY opinion* - mileages across the site may vary - you get rid of the 3B coach at that moment.  My argument being:  "personal, prolonged, profane."  Doing the "that's X" is prolonged arguing, the way I see it.  And to back that up, I have in fact gotten rid of a coach in that age-range when I was working solo behind the mound (at the requirement of the league), and I had two foul calls on sharply hit balls.  He made the comment, I launched him.

Coach calls time, and the proceeds to tell the PU to TELL ME to not get in the way and interfere. PU is a little speechless and now I’m getting a little bummed out…I tell him “If you have something to say to me, talk to me!” He reiterates it, but nicely. I let it go again. He seemed a little taken aback by my response.

PU should have probably told the coach, in some form or fashion, to go away and/or mind his own damn business.  But I have to say, I like your calling him out.  After he reiterated, maybe "thanks for the career advice, coach, but I got it," with the appropriate sarcasm.  Bear in mind, I'm the sarcastic type - but even if you wouldn't go further, that kind of verbal smack on the nose might be necessary.

Most of the game was fine except for these things, but it was enough that I left the field feeling really down.

Does anyone else have experiences feeling like you sucked in early games in your umpiring career? I absolutely love doing this, but it was defeating to get knocked down several pegs in one game. I’m a volunteer and I do it for love of the game.

Hang in there, man.

I'd love to tell you there's some magic threshold, where you'll never feel bad like that after a game.

I'd be wrong.

To wit:  it's getting near HS playoff time here in Texas (last week of the regular season starts tomorrow).  Some teams are *really* loaded and/or the other teams in their district offer them no real competition, especially if the school has ambitions to make a long run.  So yesterday, just outside of San Antonio, where I live, a team from Corpus Christi and a team from Waco played on a neutral site.  I'm told if they meet in the state tourney, it would be basically at the end - I guess they're in opposite brackets.  (I know less about how it all works than maybe I should.)  The Corpus team is ranked top-10 in the state by MaxPreps, and supposedly have nine players in the top-50.  The Waco guys didn't have quite that pedigree, but they're good.  So the intensity was gonna be there.  I got assigned to it, and was told to take the plate.

Top-2, I called a pitch down.  It may have been the first borderline pitch, but I'm not sure.  The D coach, when the catcher told him, yelled - not commented, but *hollered* - "THAT WAS NOT LOW!", along with something like "get it together," or something otherwise equally 'encouraging.'  My first thought?  "Welp, honeymoon's over."

I won't completely admit to being rattled, but that began a 2 or 3 inning stretch, where both sides decided to offer their opinion on pitches.  Mostly low ones - and I WILL admit that I was having some issues there, with what was down and what was painting the knees.  But then, because they'd determined arguing ONE side of the zone was fun, griping about the inside would be TWICE as much fun.  It felt a little like I was drowning for a while.

Two things helped.  One, I got into it a little with the home coach when his guys were batting, since the pitcher was trying to work fast, and it was causing issues.  It basically ended when I just gave him the hand-up and the "THAT'S ENOUGH!"  Also, around that time, I just said to myself "f--k these f--king guys, and all their f--king bulls--t" - and the healing began.

Anyway, the point of that long story is that:  I've worked 1500+ games, in three countries, over 20 years.  And I had a humbling experience.  My assignor even said the host school's coach gave me a good review, so I might even have done well in the cold light of day.  But I still left there feeling like hell, and it took three margaritas at a neighbors house to start feeling better.  So it's not just an "early career" deal.

There are games that will suck.  Some will be something you do;  some will be bad luck;  some will be coaches/players that suck/don't know what they're doing/wouldn't know a rule if it bit 'em on the ass.  Some will be combinations of all of the above.  The goal is to minimize those numbers.

But hang in there, and keep working hard.  Every new level looks faster at first, but experience helps slow it down.

(Also:  stop volunteering.  Your time has value.  Your skills/experience will have value, as you grow.  I know I'll never make a proper living just umpiring, but I choose not to do it for free.)

10 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Don't forget about the hookers and blow, too.

Advanced mechanic.

3 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

We'll see.

Oh, don't get me wrong - I'm cheering for *your* argument to be the "winning" one!  Especially when there's not exactly an overflowing portfolio of case files of HS players tragically killed by friendship bracelets and awareness bands, etc.

But when the balk deal is pretty much a paper exercise, and it can't get done, it lowers one's expectations.

On 4/8/2022 at 7:14 AM, johnnyg08 said:

I'll go on the record with this...don't be surprised if we see a softer stance from the federation in the coming years regarding jewelry.

Counterpoint:  Balks are still immediate-dead-ball deals.  I'm not holding my breath jewelry softens or disappears as an issue.  (Not unless we suddenly eliminate personal injury lawyers, anyway.)

9 hours ago, Catch18 said:

You could always take the self-deprecating, diplomatic approach: “Bob, is there a better way that I can convey the understanding of ‘will not be tolerated?’”

"Help *me* to help *you*, Bob!"

3 hours ago, GreyhoundAggie said:

Y'all still do the card Hokie? We dropped that a few years ago.

We do in the SA chapter, at least.  I ran out of my initial allotment, so I guess we're doing pinky-swears right now.  I'm told get them from TASO-state, so it must vary by chapter on who uses them and who doesn't.

9 hours ago, MadMax said:

I just shake my head while reading this, and think I've read it all about outrageous, ridiculous preliminaries TPTB heap on us umpires that have otherwise petty, minuscule bearing upon the actual game of baseball...

Honestly, I don't mind it all that much - we have lineup cards that we hand to one of the head coaches before the game, and the teams fill it out and hand it back at the plate meeting.  We give them a "blue card" at the same time.

I mean, that's the best I can defend it, as I've only been here four years, and am not aware of the history or rationale otherwise.  I can only guess it's to provide a record if/when some Karen or Ken sues err'one because Ken Jr got hurt doing .... something.

39 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

IF I SEE IT .... (first time)  I tell them to remove it.  I'll also say before play resumes "guys, jewelry check please - take it off, alright?" (said stearn, but calm).    If I see it again, ...I will again tell the player to remove it, and at that point both teams gets the 'WARNING', ...   "guys, ... last time, jewelry check - next person will be ejected, no questions, ok?  (again, stearn but calm).

I've never got to stage 2, but ...I know what my plan is    Now, ...is THAT HOW I'M SUPPOSED TO DO IT?  No.  (please, no lectures) .... But ... that's how I deal with it.  I'll give them an extra chance over and above the rule.

I was you once, Jeff - that's more or less how I dealt with it.  No longer.

Again - I only care used to care about HS ball.  Other than school-ball, I work the usual travel ball stuff, and I work for a couple local house leagues.  They are LL (although one place seems to have some mix of Pony/LL, depending on the age group, so 🤷‍♂️....), but I'm not some "official," registered LL guy.  I'm "have indicator, will travel."  So for me, school ball is the only place it's been an issue.

In Texas, we have these blue cards that we give to the coaches to sign, and that's the attesting of the players and how they're equipped.  I think the main intent of that is to guarantee umpires won't get dragged into any kind of liability issues, and pushes the onus onto the coach/school.  And I'll STILL say at the plate meeting, "by your signature, your players are legally, safely, and properly equipped?" and make sure they confirm it.

But again, the sheer numbers of stuff worn - necklaces peeping out from under uni collars, awareness bracelets, friendship bracelets, etc - even saw my first "WWJD" bracelet in a long time - made me just say "F*#K it," and surrender like the French Army.