johnnyg08

Where do you put the least experienced umpire in a three person crew? I tend to lean with the plate. My reasoning is that they're used to calling pitches and there aren't a ton of vulnerable rotations for PU in three person. If he forgets to rotate up to third and vacate home, it's not typically an enormous issue. What do you think and why?

The crew had a foul ball in the box.

Yes! In a two person crew from A...U1 has to be VERY careful with LH batters. It's a bit easier with RH hitters from A. I've worked with a couple of partners over the years who killed it on LH batters and I had a look as PU and it 100% did not hit them. That's a hard bell to unring.

I don't know if video review fixes this exact scenario with the video that we have. But...sure...with credible video...that would be ideal. What would fix the madness is when the other three umpires on the field see their U3 calling "Time" or "Foul" to mirror that to try to slow things down a bit. Especially with a four umpire crew. PU doesn't have a great look at this...especially with three base umpires....he can let his guard down a bit and not try so hard to try and get it. A good pregame and better mechanics ultimately make the crew look more credible. BTW, I think they got it right...it just didn't look good, esp with four.

Here's a video of what ultimately is judged to be a foul ball. In this four umpire crew, what could be done differently/better to improve the maddening situation that ensued due to poor mechanics? https://youtu.be/LQykVCRUG0g

Here's an article from Referee regarding abandonment: https://www.referee.com/abandonment/ Referee.com Home Sport-Specific Articles Baseball Abandonment Abandonment Runner Responsibilities in Game-Ending Situations By Referee - October 2, 2017 F The home run or walk to score the winning run can be an exciting moment for players — but that run can be taken off the board if the batter-runner or other baserunners don’t fulfil their responsibilities under the rules. (Photo Credit: Referee) Awalk-off is a run-scoring event in the bottom half of the last inning of the game that gives the home team the win. That may include not only a home run, but any base hit, a bases-loaded walk or hit batter, a sacrifice fly and events not involving the batter such as steals of home, passed balls, wild pitches, errors, balks and even interference. Walk-offs result in joy for the home team, dismay for the visitors and sometimes a challenge for the umpires. On occasion other things besides the walk-off act need to happen for the game to be over. An incident in a Georgia high school semifinal playoff game proved just that. Except where noted, the material applies equally to NFHS, NCAA and pro rules. In the May 18, 2017, game, the score was tied with two outs in the bottom of the seventh inning. A Johns Creek batter drew a walk, seemingly forcing in the winning run for a 4-3 victory over Lee County. Before the umpires left the field, the Lee County coach appealed that the runner from second never touched third. The appeal was acknowledged by the third-base umpire and the runner called out, sending the game to extra innings. Lee County prevailed with two runs in the top of the eighth. That victory was ultimately overturned on appeal by the governing board because the umpires had used cell phones to consult the state rules interpreter regarding the applicable rule. The full story is in the 10/17 issue of Referee. The umpires correctly applied the NFHS rule. On a walk-off base on balls, each runner must advance and touch the next base or be subject to be called out on appeal. If that out becomes the third out, a run cannot score because of the force play including one made by appeal (NFHS 9-1-1 Exc. b; NCAA 5-6c Exc. 2; pro 5.08a Exc. 2). The fact that the runner touches the plate before the out is declared is not a factor. Other events which can preclude a run from scoring are the failure of the batter-runner to touch first base, or a preceding runner who is declared out on an appeal of a baserunning infraction. Although it was not a factor in the Georgia situation, it is possible for a time play to be involved in a game-ending appeal. When a preceding runner is appealed for a baserunning infraction, the out is considered to have occurred at the time of the infraction. Thus when two are out, the status of a following runner is affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base and a run cannot be scored (NFHS 9-1-1 Exc. c; NCAA 5-6c Exc. 3, 8-1d; pro 5.08a Exc. 3). The requirements for touching the next base on a walk-off base on balls are different in NCAA and pro, where only the batter-runner and the runner on third are required to advance (NFHS 9-1-1 Nt 2; NCAA 5-8d Nt; pro 5.08b). The routine “statute of limitations” for appeal plays is before the next pitch or any play or attempted play. In NFHS and NCAA, if the offensive team initiates the play, the appeal is not negated, but in pro an appeal cannot be made if either team initiates a play (NFHS 8-2 Pen.; NCAA 8-6b4; pro 5.09c4). For an infraction that occurred during a play that ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the pitcher and all infielders leave fair territory and not merely before the next pitch, etc., as in NFHS. NCAA further specifies the catcher must have left his position on his way to the bench (NFHS 8-2-5 Pen.; NCAA 8-6b8; pro 5.09c4). If the appeal is to be made after the game has apparently ended, the end-of-half-inning procedure applies for NCAA and pro games, but in NFHS the appeal must be made before all umpires leave the field (8-2-6j). In the Georgia game, the time of the appeal was not an issue because all four umpires were still on the field when the Lee County coach approached the plate umpire. Additionally, whether the runner on second ever got to third was not argued. At some point, such a runner can be judged to have abandoned his effort to reach the next base and be declared out. Simply leaving the baseline is likely insufficient to call an out, but crossing a foul line or entering a dugout or a celebration would certainly qualify (NFHS 8-4-2p Nt; NCAA 8-5c; pro 5.09b2 Cmt). Here’s an actual play from another prep game. Play 1: With R1 on first, R2 on second and one out, B5 strikes out. The scoreboard operator quickly turns on the light for the second out. R2 glances at the scoreboard, sees two outs and trots off to the first-base dugout thinking B5’s strikeout was the third out. Ruling 1: The base umpire waited for R2 to approach his dugout and take off his helmet before calling the out. The umpire would have been justified in calling the out sooner once it was clear R2 had abandoned his base — definitely when he crossed the foul line and probably by the time he reached the pitcher’s mound. Abandonment is not an appeal play. It’s possible for a walk-off home run to be negated by a runner’s abandonment. Play 2: With R1 on first and two out in the bottom of the last inning of a tie game, the batter hits the ball out of the park. R1 touches second and believing the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across the diamond and heads toward his bench as the batter-runner touches all the bases. Ruling 2: Once R1 is called out for abandonment, the inning ends and the home run does not count. Game-ending appeals are most likely to be for baserunning infractions. In addition to missing a base, or failing to properly retouch a base (leaving too soon), failing to touch home immediately after over-running/over-sliding qualifies. In NCAA and pro, a runner who takes a running start on a tag up must also be appealed, but in NFHS, such a runner is immediately declared out (8-4-2o). There are other types of infractions that could be appealed, including the use of an illegal bat or glove, batting out of order and an illegal substitute.

What's the proper protocol here? It's not really an appeal play is it? Then I see U1 standing there...kind of tipping off the defense. There's lots to learn from this clip...so what can we learn. What do the rules say about handling a play like this?

Well, we're about a month later from the last post of this thread. Are we seeing the helmet taps? I'm not hearing about it here nor have I seen it.

Note the play at 2B. Here's the new NFHS interp from 2026. Does it apply here? SITUATION 9: May a runner who chooses not to slide, go into a base in a force play situation and make contact with the fielder; be hit by the throw; or alter the play in any other way? RULING: No. In a force play slide situation (while a runner is never required to slide), if the runner chooses not to slide, the runner must run to the side of the base in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making contact or altering the play of the fielder. If the runner goes to the base standing up and makes contact with the fielder; gets hit by the thrown ball; or in any way alters the play, the runner is out and the batter- runner is also out. The only time the runner might be able to go into the base standing up on a force situation is if the fielder is nowhere in the vicinity of the base. (2-32-1, 8-4-2b)

Not likely...but it does change the situation a little bit. These are really hard w/o video. IMO, that was pretty key information that was not included in the message that was sent to me.

I wonder...could this be R1...who was running on the airborne batted ball, now stopped at 2B b/c of the action around 2B?

For sure. But I don't want to get too third world with this.

Yeah, I don't think I'll ever be sold on the idea that a runner has to "readjust" on the base to allow the fielder to move. When you think about it, things can only go wrong for the runner. What if the runner inadvertently adjusts the wrong way? Still guilty. If the runner doesn't move while standing on the base, the defense can work with that. If it falls and hits the runner (in this case) the runner is out. Yes...the OP probably means 2B...and why didn't the runner run? Who knows...kids do crazy things that often make zero sense.

Then...we would never allow an out on a play like this correct? We'd call time and place the runner back at 2B. There's an MiLB interp and a Wendelstedt interp that offer guidance on this...but I don't think there's an NFHS interp.

Depends. Maybe yes. Maybe no. There's rule support for both.