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Posts posted by Jimurray

  1. 27 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

    I can’t remember the year of the manual. I lost it. But I do remember that Wendelstedt or the school had a quote something like “if the force existed at the time of the miss it is a forced base appeal.” I thought your 2016 BRD even mentions that Wendelstedt quote. Prior to that the BRD quoted Fitzpatrick as agreeing with NCAA. But the order of appeals does/can matter for a force and non force miss when you start with one out. 

    Updating after searching it appears the cite is in @Senor Azul's 2016 BRD: 


  2. 1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

    Mr. Jimurray, could you provide the actual Wendelstedt interpretation you mentioned please. The 2013 Wendelstedt manual states that if multiple appeals make for exactly three outs, the defense is restricted by the order in which they appeal. So, in the OP when the first appeal was made on the batter-runner at first base that resulted in the second out and thus removed the force at second. Wouldn’t that mean the appeal on the miss of second base for the third out was a time play just as Mr. flyingron posted?

    Also, the 2016 BRD in its section 13 on pages 26-27 tells us the order of appeal can make a difference. Perhaps your citation could also mention the year it was made please. Maybe it came later and thus supersedes the previous rulings.

    And I am not sure why you brought up the NCAA ruling on this since this question specified OBR. But since you did, their rule 8-6b-9 tells us that multiple appeals must be in the correct order unless it is an advantageous fourth out.

    I can’t remember the year of the manual. I lost it. But I do remember that Wendelstedt or the school had a quote something like “if the force existed at the time of the miss it is a forced base appeal.” I thought your 2016 BRD even mentions that Wendelstedt quote. Prior to that the BRD quoted Fitzpatrick as agreeing with NCAA. But the order of appeals does/can matter for a force and non force miss when you start with one out. 

  3. 1 hour ago, Guest Tomuic said:

    OBR Loaded bases one out. Long hit scores runners  from third and second. Runner from first misses  second and comes around to score, batter-runner misses first and winds up with a double. The defense appeals the batter- runner at first base for the second out and then appeals the runner who  missed second for the third out. Do any of the runs score?

    No runs score in OBR currently per Wendelstedt as the third out was a force at the time of the miss. I believe NCAA requires non live action appeals to be made in the "proper" order and 2 runs would score. FED has interps which require force and non force appeals to be made in the proper order but no ruling on the order of two force appeals so your choice in FED.

  4. 1 hour ago, ArchAngel72 said:

    Sorry did not Senor Azul do that earlier in the thread?


    So you are saying he violated 8.05(a)?  The clip I saw had him moving something during the whole delivery. What is the penalty with no runners on in majors and below if you thought he violated 8.05(a)?

  5. 29 minutes ago, flyingron said:

    I assume the first word is supposed to be "What" not "hat."     Hat rules I am unaware of.


    An illegal pitch is an immediate dead ball.   If there was a runner, it is almost always a balk and the runner gets the next base (you're going to have to describe the illegality of the pitch that you are concerned about).


    Only in FED is an IP an immediate dead ball. 

  6. 3 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

    Because there are pitching rules that must be enforced.  Do you give a batter two strikes then call him out?  Do you give a batter a walk after only three balls?  Probably not.  Because the rules say differently.  This kid is in for a big surprise when he gets to 90' if he keeps these habits!  He is illegally pitching.  Where were the umpires during his regular season?  His Districts?  His Regionals?

    Mike  (Enjoying the beverages too!)

    They were enforcing MLB rules as copied by LL. The kid will have to comply with FED rules and NCAA ( which has backtracked to current OBR but doesn’t like some of the pro shenanigans). But when he gets to MLB he will be treated the same as Cueto, Stroman and a few others, mostly legal. I would suspect he and his coach will adapt to FED without problem if that is his next stage. I see kids coming to play FED after playing OBR in another country. They easily change whatever their delivery was to a FED compliant one. 

  7. 49 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

    Ok, brothers...help me out here...the LLWS is LL baseball at its highest level. Allegedly, we have the best players, teams, coaches and umpires on display.

    As @Senor Azul has properly cited, if this is a rule and there was such an obvious and repeated infraction...why was it not being called?



    I would treating it as a legal windup or if the set I would see some continuous motion such as the shimmy. 

  8. 1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

    According to the 2020 Little League Rules Instruction Manual it is a balk/illegal pitch when a pitcher pauses in his delivery. I understand that to mean that even in a windup the pitcher is not allowed to pause a la the “Japanese way.” Since LL rules are based on OBR it is also a balk/illegal pitch when a pitcher pauses in the Set position, i.e., he suspends his lift leg.

    2020 LL rule 8.05 –With a runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch–Major/Minor League [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League] when-

    (a) the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;


    ➔ If the pitcher starts his/her delivery, in any way, and stops, the pitcher has violated the rule. Call a balk or illegal pitch.

    From the 2013 Wendelstedt rules interpretation manual (section 6.3, p. 102):

    It is a balk when…

    The pitcher suspends his foot in the air (he stopped his delivery) in an attempt to hold a runner.

    Play 132:  R1, no outs, no count. The left-handed pitcher, after coming stopped in the set position, raises his non-pivot foot off the ground and suspends it in the air, freezing R1. He then steps and throws to first base in an attempt to pick-off R1. Ruling:  This is a balk.

    There is no doubt that a total pause after starting delivery from the set is a balk with runners on. If you consider him a sideways windup pitcher I would allow a '"Japanese" windup as does MLB. But from the LL video clips of him I would say he is pitching from the set as he repositions his free foot when bringing hands together. If he didn't reposition you could say he's in the windup. That being said the clips I saw always had something moving even if you consider him in the set.

  9. 49 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

    Greetings brothers,

         Sawyer Todd pitching for WA was altering his delivery on every pitch. Sometimes he would pause while standing on one foot, sometimes he would add a shoulder shake/shimmy to that, sometimes he would do the shimmy/shake from the set position and other times he would windup and deliver with no pauses. In my opinion, this was all being done deliberately to disrupt the hitters' timing, of course. There were no balks called. There were no quick pitches called.

    Pardon my ignorance, I only work 2 or 3 LL juniors or seniors games a year...are there no rules for 12U LL restricting this kind of varied pitching motion?


    What codes do you call where you would call this, which I haven't seen. But have you seen MLB pitcher Stroman do his magic? Rarely gets called, as I would not most of the time. If they can throw a strike while winding up "a la Japonese" or other freak deliveries, without a QP I will happily rule on the pitch. If you want to read the rule book literally that pitcher who pitches overarm and switches to side arm can't do that. Do you penalize that?

  10. 1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

    In all rule sets of baseball and softball if the batter makes the third out before reaching first base no runs can score....doesn't matter if all three runners score nor how long it takes to get the batter out as long as they never reach first base.

    In your scenario the runner would have to score before the pitcher started their pitching motion...which can only happen in baseball; in all codes of softball, it is impossible...the runner would be immediately out for leaving base before the ball leaves the pitcher's hand.

    We are assuming 2 outs to start with. OP didn't specify. In any case whether he was asking about 2 outs or less than two outs I would assume the rule that would satisfy him would be the equivalent of the baseball rule in the LL softball rulebook. 4.09 - How a Team Scores.

  11. 43 minutes ago, Richvee said:

    I would guess the majority of our DH’s have been your plate first. Honest, it’s only this season where I’ve noticed a bit of a lethargic feeling I need to fight through when I do a game on the bases after a plate. With DH’s it’s not a huge deal. The few times this year I’ve done 3 in a day, I need to be on the plate game 3. 

    4 games 2 plates, 2 bases, 1 change. Changes take longer and are more tiring. I no longer do 4 in a row.

    3 games, easy, 2 in a row and then 1. Soap bar under the covers for cramps after potassium IPA supplement.


  12. 14 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

    Lynn's post game presser was bullSH*#.  Yes, he wanted to see the trainer, but ... he KNOWS they check the belt, ...Lentz asked for it, ...  throwing it is not the way to do it.   Lentz was fine with him leaving it on the dugout railing as you can see ....  

    Hopefully, this incident will force MLB to take another look at this inspection process

    Are they supposed to check the belt? Because I didn't see that happen in a few clips of other checks although who knows what was edited. Sometimes an ump has to understand the rule he is enforcing is stupid. If the batboy gave me the belt I wouldn't take offense. If I thought Lynn was known to use stuff I might. After watching Jomboy I think Lynn has good stuff but I didn't pick up on any possibility of him doctoring.  But, to the question, Can these checks happen while the pitcher is still on the mound? Do they know they have to take their belt off?

  13. 28 minutes ago, maven said:

    OBR does have a slide rule for double plays—generally force plays at 2B, sometimes HP—namely 6.01(j)

    After defining what a "bona fide" (or legal) slide is, the rule adds:

    The provision allowing retired runners to continue to run the bases is irrelevant, as it is qualified by "by that act alone." 6.01(j) prohibits retired runners going in standing and hindering the defense. Such hindrance is not the "act alone" of running the bases.

    MLB/MiLB, like FED and NCAA, wants runners to slide or veer off on force plays, and lowers the bar for INT if they don't.

    i don't see where 6.01(j) prohibits a runner from continuing to run and touch his base whether he's retired or not. The lack of a bona fide slide also requires some attempt to make contact. The pivot man is usually behind or off to the side. If he's behind and can't find a lane to throw due to a runner on the base I wouldn't call that a violation.

  14. 1 hour ago, noumpere said:

     you base partner can discretely tell you how many pitches have been thrown once you have completed your bookkeeping.

    Which is the only duty the BU has, counting pitches while he stands away from the mound at the grass edge. If he notes his PU has been bookkeeping he’ll be ready to flash the number left. A nice technique for bookkeeping  is to leave 1 or 2 balls by the side of the catcher while you are taking any changes. 

    • Like 2
  15. 17 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

    Yes, there is. It's covered in 5.10(j)

    And a sub does not need to be listed on the batting order.  4.03(c )

    Don't confuse batting order and roster. They are two distinctly different things. You can be on the team roster but not in the batting order. You are only in the batting order if you are currently in the game.

    I believe MLB wants the batting order and all eligible players listed on the card given to the PU and opposing manager. Other leagues using OBR may or may not have that requirement and it is not an OBR rule.

  16. 7 minutes ago, maven said:

    If the ball hasn't reached 3B, this info does not determine its fair/foul status.

    As this occurred before the ball reached 3B, this info does not determine its fair/foul status.

    As 'left' is relative, we'd rather say "over foul ground." But yes, this statement is nearly correct. The only amendments I'd make are: "if the umpire judges that the ball is over foul ground when F5 touched it, then it is a foul ball."

    I would stick "completely" just before "over".

    • Like 1
  17. 18 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

    OP, by rule, fair/foul is umpire judgement. Prior to breaking the plane of the front edge of 1B or 3B, a batted ball is adjudicated fair/foul on the basis of where the ball is relative to the foul line at the moment the fielder touched it. If a batted baseball is fully in foul territory at the moment it is touched, it should be called foul. If any part of a batted baseball is over fair territory (to include any part of the foul line itself) at the moment it is touched, it should be called fair. Please keep in mind, a ball rolling on the ground in foul territory in between home and 1B or home and 3B, with ANY part of the ball hanging OVER into fair territory (to again include ANY part of the foul line itself) should be called fair the moment it is touched.


    Where the ball is is umpire judgement and how we interpret the rule is also umpire judgement. The rule/definition is ambiguous but you have given a good explanation of how we resolve that ambiguity but it does remain so.

  18. 13 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

    When 3B touched the ball, where was the ball? Fair or foul?

    It could have been both. The question to ask is was any part of the ball over fair territory when F5 first touched it. It sounds like it was from the OP. We call that ball fair although the OBR rules have some ambiguities.

  19. 19 minutes ago, Vegas_Ump said:

    Arch:  be careful not to try to infuse "String Theory" in this play.  [That's bogus rule interpretation.] The old language in the rule book used to say "A runner who is DIRECT BACK of a fielder" who fails to make the play cannot be called out.  It is play on.  But if the fielder has to really leap sideways to attempt to make a play (and does not touch the ball), upon hitting the runner, he is out for interference.  Your situation comes up with the infield way in to cut off a run at the plate.  But the language of the rule doesn't care.


    PBUC has a play where F3 dives to his right and the ball passes just out of his reach. That is “thru or by”. With the infield in no INT. With the infield normal it’s probably INT at any level where you judge F4 had a play. 

  20. On 8/8/2021 at 11:26 AM, Jimurray said:


    Regarding #2, if a sideways pitcher stretched to a stop with a free foot reposition we would probably assume the set and a rocker step after that would be illegal and penalized with a balk. If a sideways pitcher stretched to a stop with no free foot reposition he would be legally doing the same thing as a square pitcher bring his hands together prior to starting his motion. From what I've seen with sideways upper level OBR pitchers in my neck of the woods and also observation of MiLB/MLB, they all address the rubber in a manner that allows you to discern what their delivery is going to be and I've only seen LL pitchers stretch to a stop with free foot reposition and then rocker step into a windup. I believe LL allows this in Majors and below.

    From field of dreams game. Sideways pitcher comes set when winding up with no runners and comes set with runners. An example of of how you can perceive most if not all sideways pitcher’s different address to the rubber. 

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