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therefump

Infield Fly Rule Confusion

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Today, we had runners on 1st and 2nd - no outs. PU and myself (BU) signal IFR in effect before pitch. Batter hits towering pop up on 3rd base side. As usual, I have the "big" mouth :crybaby2: and YELL "Infield fly batter is out (pause) if FAIR.

Well, ball comes down in foul territory and 3rd baseman catches it. My partner (BU) yells FOUL BALL.........real pregnant pause................and in real quiet voice (he's not quiet by any means normally) batter out? . Yes, it comes across as batter might be out. It freezes the coaches and I start laughing out loud to which they look at me like I'm nuts (I am, of course). Nobody ran, no harm but it's funny how you can get twisted up on a routine call that has a "catch" to it.

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Your partner should not yell foul. The players and coaches should be well trained on an infield fly situation also. There is nothing wrong with announcing infield fly, if fair. I would not get in a habit, but the wind can also play tricks on the ball.

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Your partner should not yell foul. The players and coaches should be well trained on an infield fly situation also. There is nothing wrong with announcing infield fly, if fair. I would not get in a habit, but the wind can also play tricks on the ball.

Sorry, but I've been trained to yell out those exact words if there's any question that the ball might be foul. Are you telling me that I should not yell infield fly unless I'm absolutely certain it's a fair ball?:crybaby2:

Edited by therefump

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The way I learned it was that the verbal call should be "Infield fly if fair" - and nothing more. The batter isn't out at that point (while still waiting to determine if it's foul or fair) so that part shouldn't be stated. (Imagine the stink that'll be raised if the ball falls foul - - you'd have already called the batter out....) :agasp_:

You were the base umpire, correct? Then why are you making that call "infield fly if fair" ? :shrug: Any call up the lines is the the plate man's call.

If the ball comes down in foul territory, and it's caught, there's no need for an additional call - who doesn't know that the ball was caught for the out?

And even if the ball isn't caught if it's in foul ground - the plate umpire shouldn't need to say "Foul ball" - who doesn't know it's foul (unless of course, the fielder is right on the line, and a judgement by plate man has to be made).

Otherwise, as in the OP, the batter is out on the catch of the pop foul. No need for a call of "out' there; everyone knows it. And if it does fall on fair territory, it's still an IFR, and "Infield fly, batter's out!" can be made right there, just to make sure the defense doesn't try to pull a fast one.

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The way I learned it was that the verbal call should be "Infield fly if fair" - and nothing more. The batter isn't out at that point (while still waiting to determine if it's foul or fair) so that part shouldn't be stated. (Imagine the stink that'll be raised if the ball falls foul - - you'd have already called the batter out....) :agasp_:

You were the base umpire, correct? Then why are you making that call "infield fly if fair" ? :shrug: Any call up the lines is the the plate man's call.

If the ball comes down in foul territory, and it's caught, there's no need for an additional call - who doesn't know that the ball was caught for the out?

And even if the ball isn't caught if it's in foul ground - the plate umpire shouldn't need to say "Foul ball" - who doesn't know it's foul (unless of course, the fielder is right on the line, and a judgement by plate man has to be made).

Otherwise, as in the OP, the batter is out on the catch of the pop foul. No need for a call of "out' there; everyone knows it. And if it does fall on fair territory, it's still an IFR, and "Infield fly, batter's out!" can be made right there, just to make sure the defense doesn't try to pull a fast one.

Guys, do me a favor, read the title of the forum. If I was looking for a critique I would have posted it in the FREE FOR ALL, UMPIRE MECHANICS, SITUATIONS, etc.

First off, it blows my mind that you wouldn't call FOUL BALL if it lands foul. U101??? I have real problems with that comment. Second, if an umpire calls "Batter's OUT" for a catch or yells "CATCH" I don't have a problem with that either.

Please point me to where you've gathered your knowledge. In 28 years of umpiring I've never heard this interpretation. I'm not trying to buffalo you with experience, just stating that I really disagree with your critique.

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Guys, do me a favor, read the title of the forum. If I was looking for a critique I would have posted it in the FREE FOR ALL, UMPIRE MECHANICS, SITUATIONS, etc.

First off, it blows my mind that you wouldn't call FOUL BALL if it lands foul. U101??? I have real problems with that comment. Second, if an umpire calls "Batter's OUT" for a catch or yells "CATCH" I don't have a problem with that either.

Please point me to where you've gathered your knowledge. In 28 years of umpiring I've never heard this interpretation. I'm not trying to buffalo you with experience, just stating that I really disagree with your critique.

Wow.

So your post was just so we could get the pleasure of reading it? :agasp_:

I'm reminded of a quote I heard earlier this year, back in February...

"Do you have 20 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 20 times?"

-- Jim Evans

Edited by BrianC14

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Please point me to where you've gathered your knowledge. In 28 years of umpiring I've never heard this interpretation. I'm not trying to buffalo you with experience, just stating that I really disagree with your critique.

Seriously, after having read the post it doesn't come across the same way as to what happened. For that, I apologize. Further, the only issue was one of my partner not yelling "foul ball, batter out". Either way, runners are in Jeopardy if they decide to leave their respective bases which (this is Varsity HS) would've been extremely stupid but still possible even at the level. Everyone, near as I could tell, totally understood the situation. :Horse: The funny part was allegedly where my partner kinda squeaked out what he said.

Now

:shrug:

Still haven't answered my question! Does that mean your knowledge is home grown? :agasp_:

Foul ball is indicated with the hand and vocalized by calling FOUL or FOUL BALL. If the foul ball is caught then the umpire only calls "Batter Out" or "That's a Catch". NEVER assume that everyone knows what happened. Bad mechanics? I think not.:Horse:

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PU and myself (BU) signal IFR in effect before pitch.

My partner (BU) yells FOUL BALL

Is this a 3 or 4 man crew? I'm a little confused on how you could be the PU and BU at the same time. :agasp_:

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The way I learned it was that the verbal call should be "Infield fly if fair"* - and nothing more.* The batter isn't out at that point (while still waiting to determine if it's foul or fair) so that part shouldn't be stated.** (Imagine the stink that'll be raised if the ball falls foul - - you'd have already called the batter out....)* :agasp_:You were the base umpire, correct?** Then why are you making that call "infield fly if fair" ?*** :agasp_:* Any call up the lines is the the plate man's call.If the ball comes down in foul territory, and it's caught, there's no need for an additional call - who doesn't know that the ball was caught for the out?** And even if the ball isn't caught if it's in foul ground - the plate umpire shouldn't need to say "Foul ball" - who doesn't know it's foul (unless of course, the fielder is right on the line, and a judgement by plate man has to be made).Otherwise, as in the OP, the batter is out on the catch of the pop foul.* No need for a call of "out' there;* everyone knows it.** And if it does fall on fair territory, it's still an IFR, and "Infield fly, batter's out!" can be made right there, just to make sure the defense doesn't try to pull a fast one.
Refump, Brain's answer here is 100% correct. It's based on routine, normal mechanics for the IFF situation and the mechanics for which umpire has responsibility to foul line calls.

I understand the jest of your thread placement in the 'funny stories" section. I don't think that we here are trying to belittle you or be critical of you and your partner's handling of the sitch, we're just offering friendly advice. We all make mistakes from time to time. Heck, I remember my last mistake, I think it was back in '99, when......(feeble attempt at humor)

You see? This board here is sooooo much better than 'that other board" where you WILL have folks who seem to derive their own pleasures out of micro analyzing every single item and take it that the situation(s) described are 100% completely accurate--and then they forget soo easily how they themselves are ones who are throwing rocks but living in a glass house themselves. We don't seem to have the big egos here that exist "over there" and this board is much friendlier with guys who genuinally listen and try to help one another rather than criticize destructively.

The key word here is constructively..

I think that was what was/is happening here...

Edited by blindumpire99

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When your partner squeaked, did someone scream "MOUSE" :)

I train a group of teenagers to umpire and if I can get them to: a)say anything loud enough for anyone to hear and B) Understand the IFF or any of the rules, I give myself a beer shower:givebeer:

BTW, I like this site better less "know it alls" and more knowledgable umpires who get why most people post to a website. To learn from others.

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BTW, I like this site better less "know it alls" and more knowledgable umpires who get why most people post to a website. To learn from others.

Thanks Treedog. :) That is one of my primary goals. Having a site which is both informative and entertaining.

Be sure to refer your friends.

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Thanks Treedog. B) That is one of my primary goals. Having a site which is both informative and entertaining.

Be sure to refer your friends.

We still haven't answered the barbecue question, though.

But I think that everyone knows that 17th Street in Murphysboro, IL is the best. :nod: :)

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We still haven't answered the barbecue question, though.

But I think that everyone knows that 17th Street in Murphysboro, IL is the best. :nod::)

Some things are truly a mystery. B)

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We still haven't answered the barbecue question, though.

But I think that everyone knows that 17th Street in Murphysboro, IL is the best. :shakehead::smachhead:

Good lord no, East Carolina is the only way to go. Vinegar based over tomato based.

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LOL, you guys are NOT right....

I have come to understand that less is more. Some situations, can occur by partners verbalizing things that should be kept to themselves. In this case, Infield fly if fair, should be the best approach by the PU and mimicked by the BU, if necessary. If foul, ball dead and runners go back anyway, so if they want to run fine, let them, then send them back if necessary.

We have all had funny partners, I used to call a guy sleepy when I coached, and then got the chance to umpire with him....and just shook my head, ie paybacks LOL. Verbalizing catches in outfield does make sense, if PU and in two man, to help your partner. And Yes, I as PU even verbilized a fair ball up the third base line, in a three man after pointing twice. Now, I know I shouldnt have, but it almost hit my partner in D and he was stunned a bit, so I wanted to bring him back into the game....

And this board, is usually much better then most others. And I tend to find, Brians and various others comments USUALLY pretty good, and only relish when I get a rare opportunity to gently throw Bri under the bus. But I find that when I do, he has already taken out the samurai sword, quickly sliced my neck and I only find out when I am laughing on the floor at him and my head falls off....

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Tonight I called in infield fly (which it was), no one knew what to do. So all the runners went up one base, and the defense tried to get the "force" at third. This was a 10-12 C division game. So me being Mr. Nice Guy, I called time explained to both sides what an infield fly is and put all the runners back and called the better out. I hate the idea of a "do-over" but in this case, it was just mass chaos, and when the coaches don't know what the hell is going on I can't penalize the kids..

Nate

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BTW, I like this site better less "know it alls" and more knowledgable umpires who get why most people post to a website. To learn from others.

Cool comment. I have been doing umpiring in some form or another for 28 yrs. I still learn from this site. B):HD:

Kudos to Warren:angel4:

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I've been doing it for 36 yrs and I'm a rules interpreter, but I still learn stuff all the time. The advantage of sites like this is you get exposed to situations you wouldn't normally think of.

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So me being Mr. Nice Guy, I called time explained to both sides what an infield fly is and put all the runners back and called the better out. I hate the idea of a "do-over" but in this case, it was just mass chaos, and when the coaches don't know what the hell is going on I can't penalize the kids..

Nate

I have a problem with this. Why are you putting runners back? :WTF Explaining things is fine. But, putting runners back and having a "do-over" is wrong in this situation. B) Mass chaos or not, runners advanced and the batter is still out regardless if they understand it or not. You did not penalize anyone(not even the kids).

You just made up a rule and caused the next umpire a problem when they call it and DO NOT put runners back. Now, that umpire will hear "But, the last umpire did". :agasp_:

Please, do not do this again. We call the rules and explain our calls. We do not try and be Mr. Nice Guy and go against the rules b/c we feel bad or something. This is NOT a "do-over" and does not need to be done again. :BD:

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I have a problem with this. Why are you putting runners back? :WTF Explaining things is fine. But, putting runners back and having a "do-over" is wrong in this situation. B) Mass chaos or not, runners advanced and the batter is still out regardless if they understand it or not. You did not penalize anyone(not even the kids).

You just made up a rule and caused the next umpire a problem when they call it and DO NOT put runners back. Now, that umpire will hear "But, the last umpire did". :agasp_:

Please, do not do this again. We call the rules and explain our calls. We do not try and be Mr. Nice Guy and go against the rules b/c we feel bad or something. This is NOT a "do-over" and does not need to be done again. :BD:

I would concur. The explaination is good, putting the runners back was not.

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I have a problem with this. Why are you putting runners back? :WTF Explaining things is fine. But, putting runners back and having a "do-over" is wrong in this situation. B) Mass chaos or not, runners advanced and the batter is still out regardless if they understand it or not. You did not penalize anyone(not even the kids).

You just made up a rule and caused the next umpire a problem when they call it and DO NOT put runners back. Now, that umpire will hear "But, the last umpire did". :agasp_:

Please, do not do this again. We call the rules and explain our calls. We do not try and be Mr. Nice Guy and go against the rules b/c we feel bad or something. This is NOT a "do-over" and does not need to be done again. :BD:

I understand, although this league is one that I don't care to work for, and really only do it to fill the schedule.. This game was in a league that is slowly dying in the area, reason is that the league has to many rules and doesn't not allow for competitive baseball. It is purely instructional. I've been emailed by the league president couple about being too harsh on calls not not instructive enough.. And to try not penalize the kids, and to explain everything as possible. If this was any other league, or division, you bet your ass the call would have stood and the runner would have been called out.

Basically this is a below-rec league for kids. There's no pitching, the coaches know nothing, but the umpire fee is $35.

Mr Umpire, I agree with you, but you need to take your attitude down a level. I have a problem with people talking down to me, and you're one of them.

Nate

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I understand, although this league is one that I don't care to work for, and really only do it to fill the schedule.. This game was in a league that is slowly dying in the area, reason is that the league has to many rules and doesn't not allow for competitive baseball. It is purely instructional. I've been emailed by the league president couple about being too harsh on calls not not instructive enough.. And to try not penalize the kids, and to explain everything as possible. If this was any other league, or division, you bet your ass the call would have stood and the runner would have been called out.

Basically this is a below-rec league for kids. There's no pitching, the coaches know nothing, but the umpire fee is $35.

Mr Umpire, I agree with you, but you need to take your attitude down a level. I have a problem with people talking down to me, and you're one of them.

Nate

Attitude? And, I'm one of them what? If you think I am talking down to you through a computer, you have a problem. Let me get this straight. You post this and I am the one with an attitude? You don't like me telling you that you are wrong and I have the attitude. OK.

I am saying not to make up a rule b/c you have just created a problem for the next umpire. Also, it doesn't matter if it is instructional. You made up a rule and that is NOT instructing anyone. Understand? You have just instructed them to NOT follow the rules. If the league has the IFR, enforce it and then explain it.

If this was any other league, or division, you bet your ass the call would have stood and the runner would have been called out.

Now, it is my turn again. If the defense thought it was a force and did not tag the runner at 3B, how are you going to call the runner out at 3B? You are going to treat it as a force and call the batter out on IFR? Not a good call. Again, making up rules.

And, regardless of YOUR opinion of a league, call the rules as they are and explain the call. You do not seem to understand the problem this creates.

So, as I am not worried about what you seem to have an attitude being wrong, I will ask again. Please, quit making up rules to suit your situation. This is very detrimental to other umpires who will be calling this correctly regardless of what they think of the league. You are hurting them and making their job more difficult.

Learn the rules. Call the rules. Explain the rules. But, don't make up the rules. Please.

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Well the next time I have do one of these games again I'll remember your cocky posts about making up rules! B)

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